These last two episodes have kicked my ass, they've been so awesome. I can't wait for the finale.
2 Kudos
- Survivor Sucks
- Lions, Tigers, Survivors - Oh My!
- Survivor Spoilers
- MESS Hall Tribal Council
- MESS Hall Archive
- Survivor Speculation
- Survivor 20+
- The Amazing Race
- Big Brother
- Big Brother - PAST SEASONS
- The Apprentice
- American Idol
- American Idol PAST SEASONS
- The Mole
- Lost
- Other Shows That Suck
- Off Topic
- Clubs That Suck. No, Really.
- The Dump
- Monster Island
- Purgatory
- FAQ
- In Memory, 9/11/01
All-Star Survivor: Hawaii - final notes are up. I'm done!
| Started By | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|
 rolandofthewhite |
|||
|
Posts: 1237 (08/21/08 5:36 PM) Registered User |
|
||
|
yankees42789 |
|||
|
Posts: 1472 (08/21/08 5:43 PM) Registered user |
I've been rooting for the Ahis the whole way, so I'd probably like to see John or Vecepia win this, but I'm pretty happy regardless. Yeah, Alicia
is ballsy, but she'd still be somewhat of a fluke winner. I'm pretty sure that all of them could win at this point which is the goal. As for how it
plays out? The obvious thing to do is to just have Gretchen leave if the 75% chance comes through and she doesn't win Immunity. Then Vee and Alicia get to
fight to take John to the Final Two and probably beat him in what has to be considered somewhat of an upset. John's been in control the entire game. As
noted in the episode, he's barely even had to break a sweat. But that may be his curse- by having so many friends, he's now going to have so many
enemies on the jury.
But on the other hand, it may be tougher to get Gretchen out than one might think. Because can't she just take a page out of Alicia's own book and threaten jury votes? "Gosh Alicia, if you were to screw me over now, you'd lose my jury vote and Colleen's, too. And if you think Tina (and by association Frank?) are going to let you win, you're crazy!" Again, I don't necessarily think those threats mean anything, but Alicia has to consider the possibility that she's hurting herself in front of the jury. Actually, the only person who DOESN'T have to worry about that is Vecepia because #1) her only deal is to John at this point and #2) everyone knows she'll betray everyone. She's Vecepia. That's what she does. My guess is that barring Immunity, Gretchen's story has to come to an end. It just does. Gretchen is such a threat that I could even potentially see Vee taking a rock to get her out. She gets in the Final Three, limp noodle arms, tired body and all and I still don't see her losing that challenge. So I'd say that: #1/#2 options (very strong chance it'll go one of these two ways)- Alicia/John F2 and Vecepia/John F2, with the ladies probably winning both times. Gretchen goes out 4th in both scenarios. #3 option- Gretchen runs the tables, forces John out at the F4 and takes Alicia to honor her deal, wrecking her in the final. #4 option- Gretchen wins F4 Immunity, and either makes a power play to take out John or goes with Alicia/John to take out Vee. Gretchen loses F3 Immunity, and the other two survivors go to the end together. #5 option- Alicia wins F4 Immunity, goes psycho to keep Gretchen since she knows Gretchen will take her to F2 and forces John to turn on Vecepia. John takes a rock, calling Alicia's bluff, and things go awry. So yeah, that pretty much covers it. Now watch things somehow manage to go opposite of any of these alternatives. |
||
|
TheLurkerSpeaks |
|||
|
Posts: 1281 (08/21/08 5:56 PM) |
I tend to agree with the sentiment that John would have thrown Alicia overboard. I could see him voting for Tina of his own volition, but not so much under these circumstances. Alicia basically ignored his good advice, backed him into a corner, and then gloated about it. Yes, John probably sees his game as finished if he votes her off, but by then, he wouldn't care. He's got to strongly suspect he's finished either way (even if he isn't), and the same vindictiveness that led him to vote off Colleen would come into play. I could see John being convinced to vote for Tina - I have trouble believing he'd be blackmailed into it. The scene that annoys me the most is Gretchen begging Tina to promise to vote for her. This strikes me as wrong on almost every level. Why on earth would
Gretchen be trolling for votes? She surely expects that she'd win against any of the Ahis or Alicia - that's not her concern. In fact, when things go
well for her, Gretchen naturally seems to expect them to continue to go well, which is why she seems to think that Alicia will now take her to the end.
She'd assume she had Tina's vote, probably even against Vee, and she'd surely see it as beneath her to beg for it like she did.
|
||
|
PJMichaelangelo |
|||
|
Posts: 123 (08/21/08 5:59 PM) Registered user |
yankees42789 wrote:But that's the thing, she only needs to sway one vote. As she pointed out, Rob would never vote for him, and it would be shocking after what happened if Colleen voted for him. Those two plus Alicia means she only has to convince one person to vote against him. And after all the talk she'd done during the game, wouldn't Tina look bad if she didn't vote for Vee in that situation? I think that was a threat that John had to take very seriously. I get that John is now closer to Vee and is 100% sure he has her loyalty with Tina out, but was he so sure that Vee was going to screw him over? She'd obviously throw the Final Three IC which would put it as a dead head between Tina and John.How is that obvious? She wants no part of John in the Final TC. Her only chance is for her or Tina to win the final IC. There's no reason for her to throw the challenge. Sure, she knows she's going wither way, but one opponent is vastly more attractive than the other. And I'm pretty sure Alicia is a moron. What's her plan now? Is she going to let Gretchen advance a round farther because she knows Gretchen will take her to the end? Is she going to screw over Gretchen and put someone else who doesn't want to see her win on the jury? Is she going to hope that she or Gretchen wins IC and then strongarms John into voting out Vecepia? Barring a purple rock, I'm pretty sure she makes the F3 (as angry as John is, he HAS to target Gretchen before her), but what then? What's obvious now is that the person who holds Immunity is really going to control the vote. If Gretchen wins, she can force Alicia to vote for John (knowing that John/Vee would likely be gunning for her). If Alicia wins, she can either cut Gretchen loose or make John decide between voting out Vee or taking a rock (as Gretchen has no choice but to do what Alicia says lest she go home). If John wins, he would obviously aim for taking out Gretchen and if Vee wins, she would likely do the same (as little as she trusts Alicia, Gretchen is a far bigger threat)...I don't think anyone would argue that Alicia's playing with more balls than brains at this point. She got a whiff of power and she's running amok with it. And by the way, when CL says that Vee is now semi-isolated from John, I think he means that John just screwed Vecepia over and there's no way she's going to take a rock to keep John in the game.There was never a scenario where Vee would have taken a rock for John. The only person she was going to take a rock for was Tina. But why would John know this? As far as he knows, he's got an ironclad F2 deal with Vee. So why would Tina's leaving the game affect that in his mind? |
||
|
yankees42789 |
|||
|
Posts: 1473 (08/21/08 6:27 PM) Registered user |
By the way, Mario, you suck at odds making. At this point, with four players left, the average player would have a 3:1 shot at winning the game (ie 75% they
don't, 25% they do). So there's no way Gretchen would be a favorite at 4:1.
Vegas Odds would be more like: Gretchen- 1:1, essentially an even money shot. She's easily the most popular among the viewers and she's seen as the biggest challenge threat. Everyone would want to bet on her so the line would be inflated. John- 3:2, seen as in control and a very vocal player in the game. You'd have a lot of casual viewers who might see him as the mastermind. His odds of winning are probably a little lower than this. Vecepia: 5:2, a great price given that she's a former winner and she's sneaky. But she's a goat, so that might scare a lot of people off. Alicia: 9:2, the best of the best? Don't think so. She'd be hated after this episode and people would think with how dumb she's been playing that she's got basically no shot. This is a strong bet. |
||
|
colleenlover |
|||
|
Posts: 8380 (08/21/08 6:31 PM) Registered User |
I think the notes are great! And really shows where your head is at with the rewrite- and you said it, where's the fun in essentially rewriting the same
thing.
I never had a problem with Alicia winning last time based on her character, I just had a problem with making her smarter and other people rolling over. And have fun all the way if you want it to feature predominantly people in the ending that weren't the last time. But last time Murtz complained that the first five boots would be better to have at the end instead of the eventual final five- and we had to explain to him that that was not what the project was about, that that would be manipulating and not the natural progression. That was the whole initial mission statement of having so many different writers to essentially rollplay what would happen if A, B and C happened. I'll read the final and have a lot of fun and be proud of you- but I will still be thinking uh, uh, uh, Sensei you're manipulating things. I don't like reading in your notes "I always thought that I would have Vee win over Tina..." or other statements that go into the future -I think it should happen day by day and you're genuinely just as surprised. I personally think this thing was leading to a natural Pagonging of the Kekos through the reality of the situation, but know time and writing leads to boredom with that- but it's a challenge. 10. Kathy 11. Gretchen 12. Alicia (with John trying to take out Tina and using Alicia as a final four boot, but Colleen screwing it up) and then it's a free for all in final four. With these four players needing to face another Ahi in the end with all the betraying they've done... Colleen wanting Vee out John wanting Tina out Tina wanting John out Vecepia wanting Colleen out |
||
|
colleenlover |
|||
|
Posts: 8381 (08/21/08 6:35 PM) Registered User |
There was never a scenario where Vee would have taken a rock for John. The only person she was going to take a rock for was Tina. But why would John know
this? As far as he knows, he's got an ironclad F2 deal with Vee. So why would Tina's leaving the game affect that in his mind?
Because John is going to see from Vee's POV he let two Kekos in the end together who could vote as a block. How does Vee know and trust that Alicia and Gretchen are enemies? |
||
|
colleenlover |
|||
|
Posts: 8382 (08/21/08 6:40 PM) Registered User |
But that's the thing, she only needs to sway one vote. As she pointed out, Rob would never vote for him, and it would be shocking after what happened
if Colleen voted for him. Those two plus Alicia means she only has to convince one person to vote against him. And after all the talk she'd done during the
game, wouldn't Tina look bad if she didn't vote for Vee in that situation? I think that was a threat that John had to take very seriously.
But that's true of any player saying that to another player. There's a stronger case of John losing Tina and Vee's vote for knocking them out of the game when he didn't have to. Vee and he did the same thing to Frank and Rob. If John goes with Alicia, (again, from his POV) she is a Keko with no blood on her hands- that is why and AHI had to go to the end with an AHI -and the four of them (Colleen, John, Vee, and Tina would know that). He's not going to be thinking about well Alicia won't get Gretchen's vote blah, blah, blah -he'll only be thinking about the votes he won't get. |
||
|
PJMichaelangelo |
|||
|
Posts: 124 (08/21/08 9:16 PM) Registered user |
colleenlover wrote:It's irrelevant. In John's mind he has an ironclad F2 deal with Vee. Remember how Vee went on and on about how she'd never, ever made a F2 deal before, how she'd always minced her words, but she was making an honest to God F2 deal with John? John has zero reason to doubt that. He knows how slippery Vee can be, sure, but in this case he thinks he's got her over a barrel, because he doesn't think she'd ever break that deal. Remember how confident John was when Alicia kept asking him what happens at F4? He wasn't worried at all about Vee. So at the end of the day, why would he worry about how Vee would react if Tina was gone? Remember, it was Tina who had the hardon about getting rid of Gretchen. John and Vee haven't shown that much respect for Gretchen or her game. Remember how hard they laughed when Tina went on and on about how big a threat Gretchen was and how Hatch wanted her gone first, and Colleen corrected her and said Greg was the target but he won immunity? So from John's POV, hey, he's fucked if he does and he's fucked if he doesn't, but if he keeps Alicia around he can still try to spin shit. If Alicia's gone, then he knows it's pick 'em if Alicia can find a fourth vote against him or not. Why take that gamble? |
||
|
colleenlover |
|||
|
Posts: 8383 (08/21/08 9:32 PM) Registered User |
wow, I don't see how that's irrelevant at all. John as a final two deal with Vecepia and therefore they plot and share info, and between them have a easy way to final three with Tina (doesn't matter if they're playing one another, to one another's face that's their agreement). So John can do whatever he wants and expect Vecepia to be "Okay, cool -thanks for leading us to our potential doom?" No way. From John's POV there is no reason for Vecepia to think they need BOTH Gretchen and Alicia in the final four and make it a crap shoot. An ironclad deal doesn't mean the other alliance member just lets the other make something they would view as a dumb decision and not then be weary of their partnership. So what does John tell Vecepia now -"sorry, but this was my way of ensuring I have protection from you and Alicia -whereas you had me and Tina." He's going to be worried that Vecepia is going to be thinking "Fuck John. I'm not taking a bullet for him now." It's most definitely not irrelevant. |
||
|
lalalakers |
|||
|
Posts: 349 (08/22/08 12:51 AM) |
Before I read through everyone else's comments, just wanted to say something about your immunity decision-making.
I was going to ask the same question Yankees asked, but it seems like you cheated a bit to me. (and of course, this is tongue in cheek, because it's your story, but still). You picked a random immunity winner, and it was Alicia. So it seems to me that, if everyone went all out, Alicia would win. I also have no problem with the fact that she could decide to give up and hand immunity to Gretchen - IF, of course, Gretchen was the second last person standing. Of course, there's no guarantee that she would (as Vecepia could have very well been that person). In keeping with your random-selection of immunity winner process, it seemed only "fair" to me (and to your selection process) that you drew a second time to see who would be hanging there second last. Because, if it wasn't Gretchen, then your situation wouldn't have been feasible. Also, do you generally pick your random immunity winner before you pick who gets spoiled? Seems like, by picking early, you more forced Alicia's hand to pick Tina to spoil, rather than the "obvious" pick of Gretchen. |
||
|
SenseiKreese |
|||
|
Posts: 2444 (08/22/08 12:52 AM) Registered user |
By the way, Mario, you suck at odds making. At this point, with four players left, the average player would have a 3:1 shot at winning the game (ie 75% they don't, 25% they do). So there's no way Gretchen would be a favorite at 4:1. Hey, I don't gamble. Lay off. I have no idea how Vegas odds work. I choose to believe they have nothing to do with math. I choose to believe it's just some mystical formula that only people in Vegas can figure out. So I plead ignorance on this one. Last time Murtz complained that the first five boots would be better to have at the end instead of the eventual final five- and we had to explain to him that that was not what the project was about, that that would be manipulating and not the natural progression. That was the whole initial mission statement of having so many different writers to essentially rollplay what would happen if A, B and C happened. Yes, no, and yes. Yes that would be manipulation, and no it's not forbidden to use manipulation this time around. Hawaii is too damn important to too many people for me to just blindly wander into an ending that I can't plan for this time. This time around I am definitely going to work some themes into the story that lead to the ending. That is 100% different from the way I approached this story last time, and I won't deny it. This time I am putting some actual thought into it. Last time the ending to Hawaii was just a blind crap shoot. I had no idea what was going to happen. And that's probably precisely why it was so hated so much There were no clues that Alicia was going to win, so when you got to the ending it was like, "That's it?" But I changed that after Hawaii. I definitely set up my winners thematically in both Alaska and Greece, and the endings were much more widely praised by the readers because of it. It's a lot easier to accept an ending that you see coming. So am I approaching Hawaii differently this time around? Of course. This time I think I know what I am doing. I know that is going to disappoint you a little bit (since it is so diiametrically opposed to how I did it 6 years ago), but you have to keep this in mind. I did the same thing with Alaska and Greece too. Hawaii is the ONLY story I have ever blindly stumbled into a "what the hell" ending. After the first incarnation of Hawaii, I learned not to do that. I learned from my mistakes. Some things you just can't do as a Survivor writer. I'll read the final and have a lot of fun and be proud of you- but I will still be thinking uh, uh, uh, Sensei you're manipulating things. I don't like reading in your notes "I always thought that I would have Vee win over Tina..." or other statements that go into the future -I think it should happen day by day and you're genuinely just as surprised. Day by day is great, I do it as much as I can. But like I said above, there's no way you can do that for an entire story. I tried it once and it bit me in the ass. Ever since Alaska, I have tried to move away from that. I mean, think back to the Helen episode where she mercilessly offs Brian in Alaska. That was an awesome episode. And here's the thing... I set that up about five episodes before it happened. I always knew it was going to happen. I am constantly thinking of what I would like to have happen in the future in this story. I am always coming up with ideas. Do I use them all? Of course. I probably only use 1 or 2 for every 10 I come up with. But I always knew that if Tina and Vee squared off in the final 2, Vee could probably pull out a surprise victory. Again, it was just one of those storylines I thought of ahead of time, but never had a chance to use. I come up with a lot of them. I once thought it would be cool if Colby hooked up with Tina, and then Tina heartlessly cut his throat just like she did to Mad Dog. Again, great idea. Couldn't use it. If you don't plan at least a little bit ahead when you're writing this thing, you end up trapping yourself in writers' traps. And I have vowed not to fall into any in this story. Hence my comments about why I think about the future. |
||
|
SenseiKreese |
|||
|
Posts: 2445 (08/22/08 1:01 AM) Registered user |
Yeah I knew someone would bring this up. Fine, just pretend that Alicia won immunity and then gave it to Gretchen. That was the real storyline behind this episode. I only wrote it the other way around because I thought it would be more memorable. I just had this idea of Gretchen hanging on for dear life and begging for help, and then Alicia saved her. Whether it fit my immunity roll or not is irrelevant. It still had the same effect as if I had written it the other way around. In 12 months, "the Gretchen begging on the rings" scene is one of those scenes that most readers of Hawaii are going to remember. And really, that's all that I care about. I like the big action drama scenes. In my mind, how I got to the actual outcome of this episode is pretty much irrelevant. I mean, I did what the random drawing told me to do. Same outcome, different path. If Alicia HADN'T won immunity, Gretchen would have been toast. And I wouldn't have had a problem with that. Look at it this way. If I did feel guilty about my immunity selection this episode, I wouldn't have mentioned it in my notes. You never would have even known about it.
No. I spoil first and then pick the random winner. Both Alicia and Gretchen had a 1 in 4 chance of winning immunity. Tina had none. I knew that Alicia was going to spoil Tina from the very, very start of this episode. I just tried to hide that a bit. In the original Hawaii episode 12, this episode's immunity challenge was a balance beam standing contest. But since that type of contest wouldn't have favored Alicia, I changed it to the hanging rings instead. I figured that was one she would have been able to dominate. |
||
|
lalalakers |
|||
|
Posts: 350 (08/22/08 1:12 AM) |
Other general comments:
I generally agree with Lurker's sentiments. For the John-Alicia scene, where she's threatening him, the funny thing is that 2 of the 4 people she mentions, Kathy and Colleen, would probably never vote for Vee. True, Vee looks like a good odds to win over John if he screws Alicia over, but because of the other 5 players, not these two. If Alicia brings up Tina, Frank (who's been betrayed twice by John), herself, and then the fourth (Rob), then that's much more realistic, and maybe John goes that way. But still, it's not like his odds against Alicia are any better, and you're guaranteed 3 players in the final 4 who want Gretchen out, rather than Alicia who might be swayed to vote for Vee, especially if she's immune. And I really didn't like Tina promising Gretchen her vote. As she herself mentioned, at the very least she has to strongly consider voting for Vee, considering they've been through very similar games. Of course, there really is about .01% chance that Gretchen-Vee is the final 2, so it's not as big of a deal, but still... As for some of your notes, the funny thing is, I loved Alicia winning last time. I in general hated the characters that made the final 5, because they're not the typical ones I cheer for (didn't hate the story, just didn't want to cheer for the characters... same thing with Tanya/Gabe in Greece, or Paschal in Alaska). This time, though, I'm gunning for Vee, then John, then Alicia. I just don't want to see Gretchen win, is basically it. Anyhow, I'm happy that John bitches about the Gretchen show. =) |
||
|
SenseiKreese |
|||
|
Posts: 2446 (08/22/08 1:12 AM) Registered user |
The scene that annoys me the most is Gretchen begging Tina to promise to vote for her. This strikes me as wrong on almost every level. You know, I thought about this after you wrote it, because that was one of the scenes I was most proud of in this episode. That was one of the last ones I thought people would ever complain about. I thought it was the perfect ending to the Gretchen vs. Tina storyline. I mean, come on. "You already have your win, now give me mine." That's one of my favorite sentences in the entire story. The reason that conversation is there is two-fold. First off, I really had nothing for Tina and Gretchen to talk about. Once Gretchen told her it was a little late to be making a F2 deal, that was effectively the end of the scene. And I don't know. It just felt choppy. It felt like there was something more that needed to be added to the scene, to make it sound like it meant something to the story. I hadn't really intended for Gretchen to ask Tina for this favor, it just grew out of the natural extention of "What would they talk about at this point?" And once I realized it would be a nice scene if Gretchen asked Tina to "pass the torch", if you will, I knew I had to use it. Is it completely in both of their characters to talk about this? I don't know. I just saw it as a mental image in my head that I wanted to use. I knew that it would be the perfect bookend to the Gretchen vs. Tina storyline, and I thought it would be a conversation that a lot of people would be talking about the next day. I really had no idea that anyone would actually have a problem with it. It seemed like a scene that just needed to be there. They had to have some closure to their contentious relationship. Oh yeah, and what was the second reason that scene was there? Easy. I wanted Tina to leave the game as a good guy. That scene wasn't there for Gretchen's character development, it was there for Tina's. I didn't want anyone to have anything bad to say about her when she left the game. She is one of my all time favorite Survivor players, and I wanted to make sure she went out as a good guy. That's why that scene is there.
How can you say that there is nothing in it for Tina? If Gretchen wins the game, and Tina's vote was the one that cinched it, of COURSE there was something in it for Tina. She's all about the P.R. At the reunion show, she gets to be the hero who won it for "the good guy." For a player like Tina, I would imagine that reward is about as valuable as you can possibly get. Of course she is getting something out of it. |
||
|
SenseiKreese |
|||
|
Posts: 2447 (08/22/08 1:15 AM) Registered user |
Anyhow, I'm happy that John bitches about the Gretchen show. =) Ha ha. I knew somebody would be pleased with that scene. See, I think about you guys when I am writing this. I knew that if that speech wasn't there, one of my readers would start bitching that this was turning into the Gretchen Show. See, I have learned some things as a fan fiction writer. You anticipate the argument, and then you have one of the characters say something to rebut it. Works every time. :) |
||
|
lalalakers |
|||
|
Posts: 351 (08/22/08 1:15 AM) |
SenseiKreese wrote:Well, Yankees did ask, and i was going to =P I understand your answer and all, but if Alicia blatantly gave Gretchen immunity, then that gives John a lot more reason to give a big "screw you" to Alicia, as opposed to your scenario, where John has no definitive excuse to vote her out. And as you said, giving away immunity wasn't really an option until Amazon, I think. |
||
|
SenseiKreese |
|||
|
Posts: 2448 (08/22/08 1:19 AM) Registered user |
See, according to my research I think you could give it away as far back as Marquesas. So I'm pretty sure that was allowed back then. Like I said, the
only reason I didn't use that particular method of immunity transfer is because I wasn't sure about this. And like I mentioned in my notes (thanks
Kona!), when you don't know something for sure, don't just make it up. Somebody will always call bullshit on you.
By the way, thanks for all the comments everyone! |
||
|
lalalakers |
|||
|
Posts: 352 (08/22/08 1:38 AM) |
I think you're right. I did a little searching, and found an article written during the Amazon season, where the author said the ability to transfer
immunity "returned", and wrote that in marquesas, Kathy should've blackmailed for the transfer of immunity.
But again, Alicia actually transferring immunity would've been completely different, IMO. |
||
|
SenseiKreese |
|||
|
Posts: 2449 (08/22/08 2:13 AM) Registered user |
Yeah but it was more fun this way. :)
|
||
- Survivor Sucks
- Lions, Tigers, Survivors - Oh My!
- Survivor Spoilers
- MESS Hall Tribal Council
- MESS Hall Archive
- Survivor Speculation
- Survivor 20+
- The Amazing Race
- Big Brother
- Big Brother - PAST SEASONS
- The Apprentice
- American Idol
- American Idol PAST SEASONS
- The Mole
- Lost
- Other Shows That Suck
- Off Topic
- Clubs That Suck. No, Really.
- The Dump
- Monster Island
- Purgatory
- FAQ
- In Memory, 9/11/01
