S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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Plumpynut Saves		#801	[-]
Posts: 2 (10/07/08 4:49 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Some edgic-related thoughts I had. I realize I'm new at this and probably wrong about some stuff, but adding "in my opinion" after every sentence is tedious. So everything from here on end is my opinion and I very much respect everyone who disagree. Honestly. On Randy: He is the prophet of Armageddon for the Fang tribe, and it is crucial to note that while the actual facts weren't always on his side, the editing has never showed him to be stupid or un-perceptive. I don't know where insider clips fall as far as spoilers go, so I'll err on the side of safety: Spoiler [+] Crystal has been shown in the insider clips saying some pretty horrible things about the Fang tribe. Basically, she hates them and thinks they're stupid and they "make her sick". The editors chose not to show that, despite the fact that two people talking about how Fang sucks makes Fang look more horrible than one person talking about how Fang sucks. And we all know the editors made it their life goal to make Fang look as bad as possible. This can be observed clearly in the "Probably the WORST TRIBE IN HISTORY OF EVERYTHING" recap, which should be taken very seriously because it's an encapsulation of what the editors want casual viewers to think. So to the actual point: why have the editors not shown us Crystals take of Fang? I see two options: 1. They don't want her to be negative, since she's supposed to be positive. It's a possibility, but frankly I don't think Crystal's edit is tended to to that degree, and I also don't think saying bad things about Fang is all that negative when the show itself is spitting on the tribe's flag at recaps. 2. Crystal's story is not about betraying Fang, Randy's is. And if his strategic story is about betraying Fang and using a more dynamic strategy (alliance-hopping, say? wishful thinking), there is no way for that story to start before a switch. One point to think about: If Randy is the winner (and he probably isn't) and he "betrayed" Fang to get there (which he probably does anyway), the show and Jeff tearing Fang apart at every opportunity, in a way that is in no way proportional to their actual success (They lost one challenge in the digging, the second by like seconds, with the luck-based key stage being the chocking point), makes retroactive sense. I think this next episode will be crucial for him. The short-term content of his story so far may be somewhat excused by the fact that his strategy at Fang was short-term. He explained it to us as "wait and watch everyone implode", which is a valid strategy if you're a relatively physically weak member of a dysfunctional tribe, and it consists mainly of responding to immediate events. Randy is waiting, so his story is waiting. After a swap, though, his story has to change very drastically. He has to go in to some kind of action-mode, regardless of weather his new tribe goes to tribal council. If we don't get any major re-assessment from him on the future of his game, I think he's as good as out of winner contention. Basically, Randy needs to be CP in the next episode to still be in the running, in my opinion. It can be a CP2 or a CPM4, but it's important that we get in his head. Crunch time. On Corrine: I think people should be very careful when handling tone with Corrine. I think that if Marcus had the exact same conversation with Bob no one would suggest him to be N. She was saying "I have 4, we can control this" and then told us she's not planning a F5 here. That's not negative, and she didn't even lie. She's being shown as a strategist. The "So many people I don't like" is not very nice, but since the two people on the block were N, it shouldn't reflect too badly on Corrine. She is cold and stand-offish but she is not contradicted by the editing like Ace is, and the only spv we got on her was Charlie, our gay little narrator, talking about how smart and good at the game she is. TWICE. And we KNOW they could have made us hate that woman. They didn't. That's important. Also - I still think Corrine not being shown talking to Jackquoie about the onion alliance is a bad sign for her unless Jaqxhuie is separated from the onions by a switch up and is not relevant to their long-term story. The best switch up for Corrine, story-making-sense-wise, would be with Charlie and Marcus without Jackoouie, and a bad one would be on the same tribe with Jakkouie. Also - While I don't want to get too deep into gender philosophy here, I think that when looking at the differences between "male edits" and "female edits", certain allowances should be made for someone who was chosen to be introduced as "I'm a bitch, and I'm gonna own it". What I mean by that is that some argue (and in my opinion not without any merit) that the word "bitch" is often used to describe\punish females who behave in aggressive manly ways that do not become the delicate flowers they are supposed to be. Corrine, therefore, can be edited as more of a straight-forward strategic winner if she were to win. "It's okay for her to have a male edit, she's a bitch", sort of. I really hope I'm making any remote kind of sense. On Marcus: Still probably winning. My secret wish: Marcus getting a debatable INV1. Chaos! Thanks for reading, sorry if I wrote too much. Editted twice because of formatting issius. Huge spaces and stuff. I think I got it now. Last Edited By: Plumpynut Saves 10/07/08 5:13 PM. Edited 2 times.
cindidindi76		#802	[-]
Posts: 12728 (10/07/08 4:59 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	flf, re Marcus' tear. It was relayed directly to Ace, and I basically thought it was designed to keep Ace comfy in his worldview of his position in the game. He's being edited as Cocky Guy Who Is Clueless, and both Charlie/ey and Marcus are feeding this by making him think he's in control. I absolutely agree with this. The way some people are reacting, you would think he made some sort of horribly obscene gesture at Paloma as she was getting her torch snuffed or something. And either way it probably doesn't matter at all, considering Chris' reactions when Julie and then Eliza got voted off.
TheLurkerSpeaks		#803	[-]
Posts: 1308 (10/07/08 5:42 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	And when Chris was shown to have those reactions, he was N. Remember, in a rating, you aren't supposed to be deciphering whether or not the player wins. I can't speak for anybody else, but if Marcus had had Corinne's conversation, I absolutely would be saying the exact same thing about him. Some say the editors could have made us hate Corinne. Fine, I would agree the editors aren't going for OTTN. That doesn't mean they aren't intending for the audience to root against her. People have decided the editing hates Fang, but that isn't true. When Fang was barely beaten in the second immunity, Jeff praises them on their improvement while telling them it isn't enough this time. At the second TC, Jeff observes that they can accomplish things when they work together and suggests they do it more often. Jeff, personally, may be down on the Fangs, but the editing only pounded on that in the first episode.
guatemala fanfic	Sugar = A Case for CP	#804	[-]
Posts: 3834 (10/07/08 6:15 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Sugar: CPP5 When I initially did my ratings, I didn't anticipate OTTP being an option and I even foolishly said "I don't think there's much need for an explanation here." Well, I do understand the arguments for OTTP and I still believe Sugar should be CPP for the following reasons: 1) We get insight into Sugar's relationship with Ace. She says that they've had a connection from the beginning, she trusts him and hopefully he's gonna take care of her. This confessional was also a bit ironic in that Sugar found the idol and could end up taking care of Ace. I think it was significant that we got this confessional from Sugar because we got to hear her own thoughts - she wasn't just "Ace's pawn" or the "girl that Ace was playing." I feel that her edit would have been more OTT had that been the case. But she has a mind of her own and we know what she's thinking. She even remarks "I don't think we have anything to worry about yet," which shows that she's thinking strategically. 2) Someone raised a similar point already (I believe it was colleenlover and I apologize if it was someone else), but I think that Sugar's personality, her smiling and giggling, and some of her little comments at Exile Island may have been over-the-top, but I think rating that the edit was more CP. 3) Exile scene: We first get a confessional from Sugar where she says that getting the comfort would have been nice, but it would be really stupid because she's pretty sure the idol is still there since she's only the second person. I thought that this was a complex thought to surmise that the idol is probably still out there and she should look for it - even though she really didn't need it in her mind because she had just said to Ace "We don't have anything to worry about." One of the characteristics for OTTP deals with self-preservation, which doesn't seem to have come into play with Sugar. 4) Warrior made the point about the elephants in the jungle and the other animals contributing to an OTT edit. I can understand this point of view because, perhaps, it make it looks like she's being really heroic by risking danger to find the idol. I definitely acknowledge that, but I don't think it erases the complexity and I think it's also just to make the entire scene more dramatic too - not necessary to simplify Sugar's edit. 5) She said this is not her normal thing; she's not a camper; she doesn't like to get dirty. She then explained her personal motivation for why she went on the show: to help her grow up, get a thicker skin, and deal with her father's death. She says that playing the game will help her become a stronger person. I felt that this showed a few things: 1) a complex emotion; 2) an understanding of herself and her struggles; 3) character development. 6) We then see her searching for the idol for an extended period of time. She says that she doesn't know how to play the game but everything she does in the game is increasing her confidence. Again, I thought this was self-awareness and was insight into her personality and how the game is affecting her. She also had a quick confessional saying "I'm a lot tougher than I thought I was." 7) Her final confessional on Exile came after she found the idol. She said that she thinks Fang sent her because they thought she was dumb (again, self-awareness and awareness of her position in the game = complex thought) and she says that her father's been with her the whole time. 8) After losing the Immunity Challenge, she has a confessional saying that she's a lot better than she thought at playing off that she doesn't have the idol, and then she divulges to Ace that she has it. This scene was somewhat strategic, at least. 9) At Tribal Council, she brought up her father again and said that she missed her tribe. I don't really have much to say about this other than that it showed emotion again. Overall, I think she had a combination of strong character development (emotion and personal insight about motivation, her personality, etc.), and then a bit of strategy by discussing the relationship with Ace, trying to play off not having the idol, and then telling Ace she has it. So that's why I gave Sugar a CP. I do understand the reasoning behind OTT, but I'm just giving my reasons for why I rated her the way I did and I hope that my point of view makes sense as well.
OnlyTheHunter		#805	[-]
Posts: 1689 (10/07/08 6:51 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Point on Marcus' tear - it happen post vote at TC - how was that to be explained at the time? Give it pause to follow up. If we start ep 3 about Ace being played, it is simply part of that story. Michael
Plumpynut Saves		#806	[-]
Posts: 3 (10/07/08 7:03 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Regarding Corrine - When I said we know they could make us hate her and don't I didn't mean "the editors could have made Corrine much worse, and therefore she cannot be negative". I meant her edit shows some tending to, which is good. It was supposed to be kind of seperate. But I indeed think that Corrine didn't earn a N in this last episode. In fact, the general vibe about Corrine in most places, as far as I can tell, is that she isn't living up to her first "gonna be a bitch" confessional. She'll probably end up N, I just don't think roping Bob in is enough to give her that N. I watched the scene again, and it still doesn't seem to show Corrine in a negative light to me. She wants Bob to vote with them, but isn't going to take him to the end. And she's semi-upfront about it. I don't know, doesn't seem all that bad. And about the editing hates fang thing - you might be right about the editing vs. Jeff thing. I just thought that if the editors included a comment by Jeff it was meant to be taken by the viewers as at least somewhat correct. I mean, if Jeff says some bad things about you and the editors show it - most people believe it. He's the "impartial host looking from the outside". Maybe Jeff is now viewed as having more of an agency of his own. I don't know. I think most people saw the first two episodes and thought "trainwreck". The recap conquers (and I really think the recap is important). Even when they win challenges they fight about running out of food. I think most casual viewers still think about Fang as the dysfunctional tribe, One that might have a chance, now that they've won in the last episode, but still having huge problems. This is not just because of Jeff, it's also because almost everything we've seen of their camp life is people arguing. They had their fishing stint, which was nice, but isn't enough in the sea of negativity. You just don't hear a lot of Kota people talking about how Kota sucks and are all stupid idiots. Fang's story, up until now, has been very negative in my opinion. Not completely negative, but negative none the less.
Phoenix1269		#807	[-]
Posts: 201 (10/07/08 8:25 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Dear GF... that was everything i wanted to say in defense of Sugar being CP. She was far too developed to be classified as one-note or simply as a caricature. xoxoxoxo ETA: I suppose we could go a step further and look at the definitions> CP 1) well-developed, their editing has depth to it, and their choices are presented to the audience so that we get an insight into their thinking. > Sugar was very well developed this episode, and her choices were shared with us in her own voice. She also shared personal information (ie. about her father) that has an impact on her in playing the game and also from what she wants put of it. 2) complexity of thought about the game, and or complex emotions that might be construed as Positive or Negative. > yes on both counts... see GFs wonderful analysis. I also thought that her statement about how Fang sent her to Exile because they thought she was dumb was very telling and self-aware. More-so because many of her own tribe thinks she is dumb too... The only edited person form Kota to be shown to think that Sugar was not dumb... indirectly... was Marcus a TC... where he said if he found it he would keep it hidden. 3)expresses internal conflict over a situation, expresses a "deep" or turbulent emotion like remorse, loneliness, or betrayal expressed intelligently and not like "You're a liar, T!;" demonstrates a complex strategy or bold strategic move and their reasoning for it. > I suppose going back to the scene with her telling us about her dad and getting a thicker skin etc, is probably the most relevant here, i mean, talking the death of a loved one is certainly deep, and how it has affected her would also qualify here. Especially as she has related these emotions to her game play and how she is hoping that this whole expereince will help her. 4) If the player gets quality screen time and is either shown multiple times being strategic or shows a multi-dimensional side, then you go with CP. Quality screen time, certainly. She had a few strategic moments - maybe not big and brash like Corinne, but they were still there. And i suppose all of exile could be considered strategic as it does certain ly change her long term game. And she definately showed us that there is more ot her than the giggly-dumb blonde-retro pin-up girl who is Ace's pawn... OTT 1) a character that is being characterized or simplified. In story terms, they are the villains and heroes, the ones we love to love or hate. >Sugar is the kind of person who is readily likeable.... so she is dangerously close to OTT in real life, and i can understand why people might want to label her that way.... Her well expressed thoughts and self-awareness, especially in the face of the caricturization is what keeps her from being OTT (ie. She proves she isn't a dumb-blonde by finding the idol, when the lawyer didn't) 2) OTT players are generally always edited in a Positive or Negative light. >This is the first episode that Sugar has been edited P. 3) A mixture of positive and negative editing ends up being neutral overall. >n/a 4) Usually lacking in strategy, or strategy not expressed with much internal conflict - but they can have lots and lots of conflict with other people; no remorse if N and no "evil" strategizing if P - only focusing on loyalty or saving one's own skin . >She did show some strategy regarding her alliance with Ace, as well as reasoning out why she should look for the idol at exile. Her internal conflict regarding the idol search was very much about her own lack of confidence in her game (shows self-awareness). She has so far not had conflict with anyone. She hasn't focused on loyalty or saving her own skin... however, as an interesting side note... Ace DID do this... after Sugar told hm she found the idol... just a little extra food for thought to follow-up Guatamala Fanfics EXCELLENT post. SUGAR = CP Last Edited By: Phoenix1269 10/07/08 8:46 PM. Edited 2 times.
guatemala fanfic		#808	[-]
Posts: 3836 (10/07/08 8:56 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Thanks, Phoenix, and that is a great post by you as well! It's nice to see specifically how she fits in with the Guidelines for CP. :)
colleenlover		#809	[-]
Posts: 8530 (10/07/08 9:43 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	okay, we're also most likely letting the past two episodes influence us to some degree re: Sugar. We've basically written her off, and also have zeroed in on Marcus/Corrine/Charlie triangle. So we're astute to know what Sugar's most likely outcome is. If this were the first episode, or she had more built up, then we'd probably be following the more CP slant. The CP edit should have layers of doubt and foreshadowing about the character- Sugar is plucky and great, but then we get viewpoints from the others that Ace is using her to take her to the end for an easy win. Sugar then is reinforced as being in doubt, a set-up for surprise when she wins, etc. CP editing. Granted, I would have more of confessionals from her opposition thinking she's dumb or weak, but the CP tweaking is still there. If this were my first episode, I would be thinking the endgame would be about Ace, Sugar and Bob going to the end. But I think the debate is just putting us in a holding pattern that we don't need to analyze. She's not winning.
9RedWing19		#810	[-]
Posts: 2238 (10/08/08 7:11 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The OTT rebuttal to the "Sugar as CP" position. We get insight into Sugar's relationship with Ace. She says that they've had a connection from the beginning, she trusts him and hopefully he's gonna take care of her. I will discuss the "Legally Blonde" parallel later, but what this scene told me was that Sugar was a poor helpless blonde that needed a strong man to protect her. It was "character development" for her as the dumb pretty blonde (which enhances the stereotypical first impression - her name, her profession, her looks). We first get a confessional from Sugar where she says that getting the comfort would have been nice, but it would be really stupid because she's pretty sure the idol is still there since she's only the second person. This is where the "Legally Blonde" storyline starts. Sugar isn't just about creature comforts, she wants to do something and show that she's not just some airhead model. That being said, I don't think you could give any contestant a huge amount of credit for looking for the idol in these circumstances, given the value of the idol and the presumption that the contestant is out there trying to win. Warrior made the point about the elephants in the jungle and the other animals contributing to an OTT edit. Yes, the elephants, the crocodiles, it was all so realistic. This type of exaggeration is so OTT. She said this is not her normal thing; she's not a camper; she doesn't like to get dirty. She then explained her personal motivation for why she went on the show: to help her grow up, get a thicker skin, and deal with her father's death. My issue here is that is all so clichéd, particularly the reference to her father's death. In sporting events it seems every week there's references to some athlete being motivated by the death of a parent, sibling or child. While I am not trivializing what Sugar has gone through, I'm saying that it's a commonly used story line. Cliches may contain a kernel of truth, but they are used as part of a well-worn storyline that doesn't require the audience to do too much thinking. This type of simplified edit is an OTT characteristic. Her final confessional on Exile came after she found the idol. She said that she thinks Fang sent her because they thought she was dumb. Well they did think she was dumb. And she did something that the lawyer on the other team did not. Ding, ding, ding, ding - we have our "Legally Blonde" parallel. complexity of thought about the game, and or complex emotions that might be construed as Positive or Negative. > yes on both counts... see GFs wonderful analysis. I also thought that her statement about how Fang sent her to Exile because they thought she was dumb was very telling and self-aware. More-so because many of her own tribe thinks she is dumb too Sorry, but I found this simplistic in the extreme - I'm going to show them that I'm not so dumb (and after the Perils of Pauline she did so). a character that is being characterized or simplified. In story terms, they are the villains and heroes, the ones we love to love or hate. Sugar is the kind of person who is readily likeable.... so she is dangerously close to OTT in real life, and i can understand why people might want to label her that way.... Her well expressed thoughts and self-awareness, especially in the face of the caricturization is what keeps her from being OTT (ie. She proves she isn't a dumb-blonde by finding the idol, when the lawyer didn't) I contend that she was simplified in this episode - the supposed dumb blonde that is smarter than people give her credit for - many a movie has been built around this premise, and if someone's edit can be likened to a movie, particularly one such as Legally Blonde, it is OTT.
colleenlover		#811	[-]
Posts: 8532 (10/08/08 8:12 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I feel we could potentially be confusing things and what the point of an OTT and CP tone means. It could really convey the same feeling to the general viewer (Wow, I really like this person; wow, I really hate this person) but the CP has a sublty crafted net thrown out that could bring back things to the endgame. The legally blond thing -well that's how she's behaving out there. In long, traveling shots we see that is her behavior. If we had multiple composites of someone giggling, maybe. We can't confuse an OTT personality with an OTT edit. Take for example of Legally Blond itself -an OTT character but in terms of plot, doubt and confusion is attributed to the character about whether or not she can win the big case (or whatever it is). All we need to know about a CP vs. OTT character is their endgame chances.
Warrior		#812	[-]
Posts: 2662 (10/08/08 8:15 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Thank you gf and Phoenix for your posts. While this isn't all that important because we know she doesn't win, it is important to those who are new to Edgic and those lurkers out there to understand our rating system. I don't dispute the fact that she had a few statements that could be considered complex, but her edit was edited in an over the top manner. IMHO Elephants and crocodiles Oh my! They edited in her story of loosing her Father to pull at our heartstrings, not once but twice. That's OTT To RedWing ... ...I agree 100%. (you saved me a lot of typing...thx) Last Edited By: Warrior 10/08/08 8:26 AM. Edited 2 times.
colleenlover		#813	[-]
Posts: 8534 (10/08/08 9:12 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	what the do the crocodiles and the OTT moments have to do with the ultimate story and doubt and projection of a character? If Rich had thunderbolts of lightening digitally placed behind him in Borneo it wouldn't change the CP vs. OTT. The CP for Sugar comes from the being dragged to the end and losing comments from others. Generally, the basic OTTP stance is they can't be in the end because we know the outcome and the surprise is dashed. Here, the complexity (or intent) is love/really like this character but I don't think she/he could win in the end. That's all that really matters.
Warrior		#814	[-]
Posts: 2663 (10/08/08 1:31 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	fatlittlefingers....Please Ok, ok, ok...I'll reach across the isle. Since it was a 50-50 tie we could post it on the chart as OTTP5** but with the background color of CPP. (Or vise versa) Last Edited By: Warrior 10/08/08 1:49 PM. Edited 1 times.
Dictatorship		#815	[-]
Posts: 4565 (10/08/08 2:16 PM) Crying my eyes out and shaking so much :( Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Ok, ok, ok...I'll reach across the isle. Since it was a 50-50 tie we could post it on the chart as OTTP5** but with the background color of CPP. No, that would be way too confusing...
Oowatanite		#816	[-]
Posts: 5969 (10/08/08 2:22 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Warrior, this is no time for compromise. Stick to your guns, OTTP5 is the right call.
Warrior		#817	[-]
Posts: 2664 (10/08/08 2:25 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	LOL. your right Oowatanite...never mind she was OTTP!
astroline		#818	[-]
Posts: 1449 (10/08/08 2:26 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	You have it in Susie's column anyway, Warrior...
guatemala fanfic	Thanks	#819	[-]
Posts: 3837 (10/08/08 2:37 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Thank you to both Redwing and Warrior for explaining your opinions.
Phoenix1269		#820	[-]
Posts: 202 (10/08/08 3:17 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	this is tough since it was truly 50-50... i think there have been excellent arguments on both sides, and i do understand the reasons for OTT. I guess i just feel it would be a disservice to Sugar's development to ignore the CP in favor of OTT... flips coin flips coin again shakes head wishes FLF good luck... eta: format issue Last Edited By: Phoenix1269 10/08/08 3:19 PM. Edited 1 times.

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