S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

0 Kudo

Started By	Comment
Phoenix1269		#1341	[-]
Posts: 231 (10/20/08 6:44 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oowatanite wrote: Susie had tone ???????? So she goes from INV to UTRN ??????? Phoenix, how many N tone ratings did Susie get this last episode, please and thank you. Out of 18 votes... Susie recieved for TONE: 1 Negative Vote 1 Positive vote 0 Mixed Votes 16 Neutral Votes -- Regarding INVN1... Invisibility by simple definition doesn't get a tone. It's invisible. It is the only rating that is <theorectically> NOT open to interpretation... well.... hmmm. (went back and added the "theoretical" part) If there is a feeling that Susie was portrayed as negative... then let's throw caution to the wind and give her an OTTN1 You can't get more one dimensional than what she was portrayed as this episode... complete with the mimicking gorilla-gaping yawn clip. (Thanks for that Oo!) ETA: thought i should include the notation that i am being a smart ass here and am running my mouth. :) Last Edited By: Phoenix1269 10/20/08 6:53 PM. Edited 2 times.
OnlyTheHunter		#1342	[-]
Posts: 1733 (10/20/08 7:11 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	It's the SPV's that separate Susie from Corrine. Either you accept that as UTR or not. Tone, absolutely not. You don't hand P or N (or M) to every player just to do it. She would deserve tone no more than Dan. They aren't fitting in, and that accentuates Randy, who is. Randy is CP, upon even cursory inspection, since I'm already sounding definite. Or defiant. Or whatever. :-) Michael
SurvivorFanGP		#1343	[-]
Posts: 9318 (10/20/08 7:40 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Don't get how Ken's written off, considering Parvati followed the CP/UTR trend for pretty much half the game.
fat little fingers		#1344	[-]
Posts: 5665 (10/20/08 7:58 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Therefore, it is not obvious that he has to align with the Onions. It is clearly stated that Randy thinks Kota is "wonderful". He loves being on the tribe, whereas his edit on Fang was endless frustration and despair. I used the "Onion" term, as that is what remains of the old Kota tribe. They are solid and outnumber the new tribemates and Randy says he knows this: Randy states, "...if they had to vote people out right now /break/ they'd vote the Old Fang people out /break/ but, ya know, I'll work on 'um..." There certainly has been no CP like concern over abandoning his allies to get ahead in the game. Because that is not Randy's edited personality. Randy is taking care of Randy. He had stated that he was willing to sit back and watch Fang self-destruct. (The same attitude that has been picked up by Ace.) And he's chosen to be "Kota yellow to the end". The edit has made it clear that Dan and Susie are not integrating into Kota. Randy's edit followed right after Marcus tells us this. We have to go by the edit as given and not read "reasonable" explanations into it. Marcus set the stage for Randy's speech. Even if Randy sees no choice but to be the last Fang standing on Kota, he doesn't know who will emerge from Fang to the merge, certainly not enough to make the choice to side with Kota to the end "obvious". But the entire season's edit has told us that choosing to side with Kota is smart smart smart, because everyone else on Old Fang is a big fat foolish or weak Loser. Randy has stated that his goal is to integrate in with Yellow "to the end". The edit, so far, points to his moving successfully in that direction this episode. All we get from Randy is a statement of plans - there is no weighing of options and there is no explanation for how the decision was reached nor how he hopes to accomplish his plan beyond vague "adapting". That's more OTT than CP. As I stated above, Randy weighs his options for us and he sees that for the Fang minority, it's death. As to how, he tells us quite clearly that he will adapt and one sure way was to keep be a big part of winning challenges. We are reminded by the edit over and over (from the recap) that his plan is working. TLS, at this point and especially after this episode, I have to say that Randy has a plausible Edgic argument for winning. If at this point someone told me that he wins, I'd be pissed, but I wouldn't be too surprised.
panurge46		#1345	[-]
Posts: 1132 (10/20/08 8:52 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Hey, flf, I had rated Susie as INVN1 back on page 65! You're right regarding Randy's edit. From wanting to see one tribe self-destruct, he now wants to help another go to the end. The crusty old man has ALREADY adapted his game. That gives even more weight to his comment. It's not a plan like Gregg in Palau, it is action. Do you have any comments on the lack of doubt for Marcus?
fat little fingers		#1346	[-]
Posts: 5666 (10/20/08 9:19 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	panurge, I think Marcus is less visible to the general viewer than he is to us. We've watched his every move, since his opening confessional in the premier. But, the casual viewer hasn't. One reason we're so bored by him is he's really being slipped through the middle of all the action. He's getting lots of little "worthy" scenes, but the casual viewer won't put it together until his story takes off, which probably won't be until the merge. Right now it's all the Fang noise and Randy. Look at the recap. It's all "Randy scores all the points!" and "Fang has a death wish!" and "Sugar and Ace!" I really agree with yours and Warrior's INVN take on Susie. But, giving tone automatically says there is story. It might be damn little story and it might be there to support other people's stories (Marcus and Randy in this case), but it's story and that's not INV. My vote is UTRN1 for Susie. But since I can't give her an N, it will have to be UTR1. I'm open to arguments til Wednesday afternoon. :D
Oowatanite		#1347	[-]
Posts: 6079 (10/20/08 10:19 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	fat little fingers wrote: My vote is UTRN1 for Susie. But since I can't give her an N, it will have to be UTR1. I'm open to arguments til Wednesday afternoon. :D How about this argument: Out of 18 votes Susie recieved for TONE: 1 Negative Vote 1 Positive vote 0 Mixed Votes 16 Neutral Votes
Kitty Pryde1		#1348	[-]
Posts: 5928 (10/20/08 11:29 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I wanna know who gave her the positive, because that just doesn't make any sense at all.
TheLurkerSpeaks		#1349	[-]
Posts: 1337 (10/21/08 10:25 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	fat little fingers wrote: Therefore, it is not obvious that he has to align with the Onions. It is clearly stated that Randy thinks Kota is "wonderful". He loves being on the tribe, whereas his edit on Fang was endless frustration and despair. I used the "Onion" term, as that is what remains of the old Kota tribe. They are solid and outnumber the new tribemates and Randy says he knows this: Randy states, "...if they had to vote people out right now /break/ they'd vote the Old Fang people out /break/ but, ya know, I'll work on 'um..." This is not CP editing - it actually tends toward OTT editing. There is no consideration given to either the choice he has made or the one he will have to make. He is merely narrating his current position. It is no different than Susie's decision to work hard to gain respect among the Kotas, which nobody tried to argue was CP. There certainly has been no CP like concern over abandoning his allies to get ahead in the game. Because that is not Randy's edited personality. Randy is taking care of Randy. He had stated that he was willing to sit back and watch Fang self-destruct. (The same attitude that has been picked up by Ace.) And he's chosen to be "Kota yellow to the end". The edit has made it clear that Dan and Susie are not integrating into Kota. Randy's edit followed right after Marcus tells us this. We have to go by the edit as given and not read "reasonable" explanations into it. Marcus set the stage for Randy's speech. Exactly, it is not Randy's edited personality. That personality, if edited in that way, would be CP. Randy is not given that CP personality. We saw him make an alliance with Dan and Susie, and we have not seen him wrestle with any conflict over abandoning that alliance at all. There's no weighing of options - we are only presented with his decision. That's not CP. I agree we should not be reading reasonable explanations into his edit. However, I feel that is exactly what you are doing in order to justify the edit as CP. Even if Randy sees no choice but to be the last Fang standing on Kota, he doesn't know who will emerge from Fang to the merge, certainly not enough to make the choice to side with Kota to the end "obvious". But the entire season's edit has told us that choosing to side with Kota is smart smart smart, because everyone else on Old Fang is a big fat foolish or weak Loser. Randy has stated that his goal is to integrate in with Yellow "to the end". The edit, so far, points to his moving successfully in that direction this episode. Fine, that tones the edit as P for the episode perhaps, but that has no bearing on the characterization of the edit. We have been given no insight into his choices except that he's happy on Kota - that's not complex or CP. All we get from Randy is a statement of plans - there is no weighing of options and there is no explanation for how the decision was reached nor how he hopes to accomplish his plan beyond vague "adapting". That's more OTT than CP. As I stated above, Randy weighs his options for us and he sees that for the Fang minority, it's death. As to how, he tells us quite clearly that he will adapt and one sure way was to keep be a big part of winning challenges. We are reminded by the edit over and over (from the recap) that his plan is working. Actually, he doesn't weigh his options for us. He doesn't comment on his options at all - he only tells us that he plans to stick with Kota and hope that he can adapt enough to stick around. That's a plan outline, albeit a very sketchy one, but it is not a weighing of options. Strategy alone, especially one without explanation, has never meant CP, and the fact that it is working has no basis upon whether it is CP or not either. TLS, at this point and especially after this episode, I have to say that Randy has a plausible Edgic argument for winning. If at this point someone told me that he wins, I'd be pissed, but I wouldn't be too surprised. I disagree about Randy's winning chances, but that is also irrelevant as to whether he deserves a CP for this episode. It may be about time to pull out my post from last season about the "new definitions" for the ratings.
OnlyTheHunter		#1350	[-]
Posts: 1734 (10/21/08 10:27 AM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	FLF said it might be there to support other people's stories That's exactly what Susie's edit was. It isn't important for her as a character, but she was needed to show both Marcus' recognition of her fading out and Randy's ability to be aware where she isn't. I wanted UTR because SPV is noticible. It's not like a shot of Corrine at the challenge. They decided to have Marcus talk about Dan, and could have left it alone. But they added in Marcus' words on Susie, searched for the insert of her yawning to make his words mesh with her actions, and all the time avoiding mentioning Randy. That's not an accidental screen shot, that is an editing decision with care given. panurge, you don't have to build doubt about Marcus now. Doubt creeps in both when the story dictates, and always after the merge. Define the winner early, keep the winner strung along and post merge make sure to see jury talking points, good and bad. Marcus has gone to only one TC, and yet we know he's got the dynamics and the foresight down. Doubt will creep in as soon as he - A - has a resolution to cutting out the affable Bob B - has to take out Ace C - has to deal with Randy and Corrine, the so called mean ones, down the road D - has to cut out the second Adam (Charlie), maybe the most important moment, it would seem E - more, etc., most of which won't take heed until the demise of Fangless Parvati couldn't be woven into a major fabric early, first she had to be split up from OzManda, but the pivotal moment was pulling in AlexisNatalie over Amanda's objection. That happened when it did, and swirled the perfect concern. Todd had to be shown obtaining the idols to give James, but the big doubt was cutting off JR post merge. Earl didn't lose Michelle until the merge, and that's about all they could conjure up for the 9-0-0 winner. Point being, no doubt for Marcus now? No problem. It is early. And Edgicians could see Yul was facing the jury, Ozzy too, but fans saw the Aitu 4 against 8 Raro and were shocked every week as they progressed. Sometimes we can see past what the show is selling. Concentrate on the selling points. Here, it is mild concern that the 3 old Fang can't be counted on for Marcus, that they lost an Onion but want to hide their cards for now, and that they have a loyalist in Randy but don't realize it yet, as it was deliberately hidden when Marcus is not shown mentioning Randy directly. This is a lot of talking points for a "boring" character. But he is also the winner. Michael
TheLurkerSpeaks		#1351	[-]
Posts: 1338 (10/21/08 10:32 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	BlakeB717 wrote: CP - Complex personality 1) CP means a character that is well-developed. Their editing has depth to it, and their choices are presented to the audience so that we get an insight into their thinking. We generally see their strengths and flaws. Not too surprisingly, these are the major players in the course of the game, and it is their choices that shape the story. 2) CP shows complexity of thought about the game, and or complex emotions that might be construed as Positive or Negative. " Randy qualifies as CP definitely. He wasn't MOR because he was shown throughout the episode, and each time strategic, and then reinforced his strategy by doing well in the challenges. He wasn't OTT because he wasn't distracting us from the game, he was bring us to the game and reminding us about strategic dynamics and where HE stands. Randy's editing this episode lacked depth beyond "Keep an eye on him for the future." We saw no insight into why Randy made the choice that he did nor any of the reasoning that lay behind that choice. Randy provided no complex thought about the game, and he certainly exhibited no complex emotions. Since when does MOR preclude being shown throughout an episode. Visibility is a separate measure. Being strategic is not equivalent to being CP. This is a common fallacy, but one that has been challenged from the beginning of these ratings. Primarily OTT players are distractions - that doesn't mean that a player can't be OTT without being a distraction. Again, the process seems to be backwards. You've decided that Randy is not a distraction - thus he can't be OTT. It is supposed to be that if a player is OTT consistently, then he is probably a distraction. Rate first - then analyze. A reminder of where a person stands is typically MOR because it is only a holding position when there isn't much else going on. That's a perfect description of Randy's role this last episode.
wallduck		#1352	[-]
Posts: 453 (10/21/08 1:01 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	If at this point someone told me that he wins, I'd be pissed, but I wouldn't be too surprised. The reason to be surprised would be that a winner was edited so N in the first episode. (Yeah, I know the majority rated him "M," lol). Last Thursday's episode shows how easy it is to edit someone, even Randy, as P. Randy's fatal edgic issue is his early tone, even if it's debatable whether he's received meaningful editing.
pastordice	The Edgic Cheeseburger (Episode 5)	#1353	[-]
Posts: 746 (10/21/08 1:23 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The Edgic Cheeseburger (Episode 5) A weekly attempt to refocus on the foundational aspects of Edgic in a complexly simple fashion. For reference see this The Bun (VTdiff) Marcus Lehman .25 Ken Hoang .25 Randy Bailey .29 Matty Whitmore .37 Crystal Cox .44 Ace Gordon .50 Sugar Kiper .65 Dan Kay .84 Charlie Herschel .96 Corinne Kaplan 1.02 Kelly Czarnecki 1.51 Bob Crowley 1.70 Susie Smith 1.73 The Beef (Ratings Scores) Randy Bailey +6 Marcus Lehman +4 Matty Whitmore +3 Charlie Herschel +2 Ken Hoang +2 Crystal Cox +1 Bob Crowley 0 Ace Gordon -1 Dan Kay -3 Corinne Kaplan -6 Susie Smith -6 Sugar Kiper -9 Kelly Czarnecki -12 The Cheese (Distraction/Complexity Theory)* Likely Hidden (A) Marcus Matty Debate Worthy (B) Ken Randy Sidelined (C) Corinne Charlie Bob Susie Likely Distraction (D) Dan Sugar Ace Crystal Kelly The Contenders Marcus (1st, 2nd, A) Randy (3rd, 1st, B) Matty (4th, 3rd, A) Ken (1st, 4th, B) Dice ------------------------------------------------- *The EC Ratings Scoring System Episode 1: INV (-5), UTR (-2), CP (+2), OTT (-1) Episodes 2-6: INV (-3), MOR (+1), CP (+1), OTT (-2) Episodes 7-end: INV (-4), UTR (-1), CP (+2), OTT (-1) 2 OTTS in a row (-2), 3 in a row (-4), 3 UTRS/INVs in a row (-2), 4 in a row (-4) (each addition in a row another -4)
fat little fingers		#1354	[-]
Posts: 5667 (10/21/08 2:10 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Okay, let's just acknowledge the degree to which all Edgic discussions at this point are shaped by the fact that Marcus is so Edgically far above everyone else. TLS, I think yours and my choices are based on a matter of degree. My impression is that one of your requirements for CP is that it be winner oriented. This has always been true to a degree, but with Marcus having sewn up the win, for all reasonable purposes, it is now nearly impossible to rate anyone's comments as CP winner quotes. Which brings me to: Wallduck: same situation. Yes, of course Randy isn't really on the winner list. He has at best an ambiguous tone. He was a Bitter Betty on Fang as much as the rest. He just hid his cynicism better. I don't expect Randy to win, but his ep5 edit keeps his edit worth watching. His ambiguity reminds me of Peih Gei. Her tone was all over the map, while always retaining something of the plucky underdog. Randy's swim reminded me so much of her last swim: I'll probably get ripped a new one somehow for this, because I wrote it on the fly. Rip away!! :)P
panurge46		#1355	[-]
Posts: 1133 (10/21/08 7:21 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	OnlyTheHunter wrote: panurge, you don't have to build doubt about Marcus now. Doubt creeps in both when the story dictates, and always after the merge. Define the winner early, keep the winner strung along and post merge make sure to see jury talking points, good and bad. Marcus has gone to only one TC, and yet we know he's got the dynamics and the foresight down. Doubt will creep in as soon as he - A - has a resolution to cutting out the affable Bob B - has to take out Ace C - has to deal with Randy and Corrine, the so called mean ones, down the road D - has to cut out the second Adam (Charlie), maybe the most important moment, it would seem E - more, etc., most of which won't take heed until the demise of Fangless Parvati... Todd... Earl didn't lose Michelle until the merge, and that's about all they could conjure up for the 9-0-0 winner. Marcus is not shown mentioning Randy directly. This is a lot of talking points for a "boring" character. But he is also the winner. OTH, I can recognize a favorite when I see one but I can also see when one has shortcomings in his story and it has nothing to do with finding him boring our not being visible enough. It's his story that his lacking. You say Michelle was the only doubt built in for Earl but you forget that having the audience hear how much he valued Erica and Anthony and then seeing both leave created doubt in his chances. Also, doubt didn't have to be built in for Earl. Being on Ravu, seeing Mookie making the decisions and then having the horsemen finding the idol was plenty of doubt for the casual viewer. And it was well before the merge. Look at every season, every winner and doubt accompanies that story throughout, not just after merge. Marcus is on the dominant tribe, he has the dominant alliance. That is not Earl but Tom. Tom had doubt built in to his story with Coby and Willard talking against him and Gregg telling us about his plan to turn the game against Tom. There hasn't been a single word spoken against Marcus. That is unheard of for a winner. Winners have consistency in their edits. Why show Marcus saying he wants to be clear that he doesn't want to be involved romantically with Charlie and then have a camera shot showing him biting Charlie's shoulder? It could be to show he can be devious, yes, but it could be to show that he isn't the golden boy he now appears to be. Just like the uneccessary fake tear scene after Paloma's eviction. Look at the big picture rather than the ratings. And please, don't try to use Parvati and Todd. I was here saying they were our winners when almost everyone else was still saying he was too loud and she was too negative. flf: more than PG (and all the winners we probably saw taking a dip), Randy's little swim scene was to compare him to the hippos. Same angle observing camp, same disappearing act under water. And the hippo is one of the most dangerous creature in Africa! Not in China. Last Edited By: panurge46 10/21/08 7:25 PM. Edited 1 times.
fat little fingers		#1356	[-]
Posts: 5668 (10/21/08 7:26 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oo: How about this argument: Out of 18 votes Susie recieved for TONE: 1 Negative Vote 1 Positive vote 0 Mixed Votes 16 Neutral Votes You imply that I must bend to the will of the masses. Ah, the gentle meat clever of democracy. But, to do otherwise would be elitist I guess. So, your reasoning goes as such: Tone is not on the table, therefore the claim for any amount of story is also not allowed on the table (because the masses didn't see any, ergo, no tone.) So, I'm left with only bowing meekly to the overwhelming majority and agreeing to INV. All this requires is ignoring a scene in which front-runner, Marcus tells us that Susie (She is named for the audience) is so out of it, "she doesn't seem behind anything we're doing." Front runner, Marcus continues, "I don't have the confidence that when we get to the merge that these people have got my back." So INV now includes scenes in which a named character is labeled "out of it" and is part of the story of why the front runner is concerned about his future with said invisible player. Mmmm...no. My vote is still: Susie is still UTR1, whether or not a tone is on the table.
wallduck		#1357	[-]
Posts: 454 (10/21/08 7:38 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	reminds me of Peih Gei Couldn't agree more. I was going to draw the comparison to PG, but I've complained so much already about the tone-deafness that resulted in edgic's picking PG that I decided not to bring it up. Earlier this season I predicted that the hesitancy to rate Randy N would make his MORD look good despite the fundamental negativity of his edit. And so it has. Marcus's seeming edgic invulnerability probably makes it all academic. But if Marcus happens to suffer some edgic reverses in mid-season, watch for some to switch horses and back Randy. And unlikely as it seems now, I would not dismiss the possibility of a repeat of the PG fiasco. (It's the whole those-who-don't-learn-from-history-are-doomed-to-repeat-it thing.)
Oowatanite		#1358	[-]
Posts: 6080 (10/21/08 10:12 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	fat little fingers wrote: So, your reasoning goes as such: Tone is not on the table, therefore the claim for any amount of story is also not allowed on the table (because the masses didn't see any, ergo, no tone.) So, I'm left with only bowing meekly to the overwhelming majority and agreeing to INV. No, my reasoning comes from your reasoning that since you thought that Susie had negative tone, she could not be INVN and therefore had to be UTRN1. I have no objection to your claim that Susie had any kind of story to put on the table. I just disagree that the smidgen of SPV that she did have was anything but inconsequential, no matter who provided the SPV to her, ie, it doesn't matter that "front-runner" Marcus was the guy talking ever so briefly about Susie. This is episode five and that insignificant three second Susie reference is not enough to bring her out of INV. Heck, I'd say that Corinne's "I don't want to be the only girl on my tribe" is more visible that Susie in Ep5, and Corinne was correctly INV in Ep4.
fat little fingers		#1359	[-]
Posts: 5669 (10/21/08 10:13 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Ah, but I can't help noticing that pastordice's Randyburger still looks pretty good.
fat little fingers		#1360	[-]
Posts: 5670 (10/21/08 10:20 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oo, Marcus' conf was a negative description of Susie and a declaration that she was a problem for him. That's story. Corinne had to choose someone, so she chose. Her comment had no tie to the story other than a cover for Randy's rejection of GC. Corinne had to be shown. It's even more compelling that Susie did not have to be shown or named, except to move the story forward. Story = UTR or better every time. INV is best used sparingly. The arguments for its use need to be clearly "no story".

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Yuku free message boards

S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

Quick Reply