S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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getting real		#1721	[-]
Posts: 1303 (10/29/08 4:29 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Although Danni's edit wasn't a classic winner's edit by Edgic standards, it made up what it lacked in visibility in its manipulation. Danni was inserted several times when she had no business being there. I think the biggest clincher for me was the way they handled her birthday party and the extended coverage of her invitation to the other tribe. Coupled with her 'women will endure' quote in Ep 1 that OTH has pointed out, I had her as the front-runner from that point. That was the first time I discovered Edgic and I recall being shouted down for daring to suggest she had a chance. Good times!
Kitty Pryde1		#1722	[-]
Posts: 6033 (10/29/08 5:55 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I'm reading the PI Edgic thread. I was expecting massive freak-outs at the Outcasts, but you guys were spoiled and already knew about it. ;_;
9RedWing19		#1723	[-]
Posts: 2267 (10/29/08 7:51 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Kitty Pryde1 wrote: I'm reading the PI Edgic thread. I was expecting massive freak-outs at the Outcasts, but you guys were spoiled and already knew about it. ;_; That's one reason that I think the original Edgic ratings for a season (when available) will be superior to a retrospective analysis - once you know the outcome of a season you can't help but have that knowledge influence your ratings (particularly of those contestants that go far).
guatemala fanfic	Matty As CP?	#1724	[-]
Posts: 3890 (10/29/08 7:54 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	1) CP means a character that is well-developed. Their editing has depth to it, and their choices are presented to the audience so that we get an insight into their thinking. We generally see their strengths and flaws. Matty: I know what means the most to me in my life. Every night I dream about food, my dog, and my girlfriend. MATTY CONFESSIONAL: This is by far the hardest thing I've ever done, but my whole driving force out here is Jaime. Jaime's my girlfriend, so I'm trying to make some sort of ring-type thing; just something to keep myself reminded of her. Because of her, I want to finish this out to the end. I'm in a terrible position and I feel like I've been in a bad position the moment this game started with Fang. If somebody approached me with a legitimate, logical, reasonable plan that might work, for sure I'm on board, man. I am jumping on board and I am flying with it. I think this confessional really fits the criteria for CP. Not only did it provide significant character development for Matty in terms of his motivation for being in the game, but I feel that it also helped people relate to him on a more personal level, whereas for me, I almost think of OTT distancing the character from the audience in a way by making them outrageous villains or huge heroes. For the second part of that criteria, this confessional presents Matty's choices to us in that we understand why he's aligning with Ace: a negative player from the opposing tribe. We know he wants to stay in the game for his girlfriend and he recognizes his poor position at Fang, so he needs something to change. We then have the scene where Matty makes a pact with Ace on swears on his girlfriend that they'll help get each other to the merge. 2) CP shows complexity of thought about the game, and or complex emotions that might be construed as Positive MATTY CONFESSIONAL: I think Ace and I are probably some of the top competitors out here physically and I do like him on my side, and I made a pact with Ace that I can't break and I promised on my girlfriend, which is the love of my life; she's my driving force out here and I'm not gonna break that promise for a million dollars. Not for five million dollars. I suppose this is debatable, but I think this confessional (and the scene with Ace) shows complexity of thought about the game and also reveals more into Matty's character that he would not break the promise for even five million dollars. I totally get your arguments for OTT though, flf, and as I said, that was originally exactly what I thought too, so no hard feelings The one scene that makes me question the OTT is the scene where Matty tries to talk Ace into blindsiding Sugar to out the idol. I know very well that strategy does not equal CP, but I decided that he had too many dimensions to him to just be simplified as OTT. It didn't seem to fit with him being the "amazing, challenge-dominating hero." There seemed to be more to him than just that aspect, and I got the same impression from his brief strategy talk with Crystal (where he ultimately tells her to vote out Kelly, and then assured Ken of the same thing). My opinion is that if he was going to be OTT, these scenes would have maybe been left out. 4) If the player gets quality screen time and is either shown multiple times being strategic or shows a multi-dimensional side, then you go with CP. Without realizing it, I addressed this one already because I do feel that there were several different dimensions to Matty in terms of his motivation from his girlfriend, the pact with Ace, being the guy who did well at the challenges, wanting to blindside Sugar, then telling Crystal and Ken to vote out Kelly, and at Tribal Council, he was shown to be one of the only safe people in the tribe, but said that it could be any one to go. So that is my reasoning for why I changed to CP, but again, you have great points for OTT as well. I definitely could see all of them, and thanks again for wanting to consider my point of view before making a final decision. I appreciate it! :)
tobificus	random musings	#1725	[-]
Posts: 198 (10/29/08 7:56 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Based on air time and comments such as Paloma's, "If Ace wins this game, I'll stop watching Survivor," I believe this is a reasonable order for who's left. 12/11 Crystal/Dan Let the Pagonging begin 10 Marcus 9 Corinne 8 Charley 7 Old guy (Professor) 6 Susie 5 Ken 4 Matty 3 Sugar 2 Randy 1 Ace
fat little fingers		#1726	[-]
Posts: 5691 (10/29/08 8:09 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	You aren't doing your Edgic analysis because you need to study??! Come-on gf, get your priorities in life straight!! Lol. Okay, that was a pretty ambivalent argument, dude. ;-) Yes, we get into Matty's head, but what do we find? An over the top tribute to his snuggle buddy. His confessionals are focused on his girl and not the game. He'd turn down the chance for a bazillion dollars rather than sully his girlfriend's love by betraying Ace at some point. If the love of his life were there, she'd strangle him! Lol. We already know Matty's character. He's the hard-working, super boy scout, who is frustrated by being surrounded by idiot losers. The edit passed up any real opportunity to get into Matty's head about his new alliance or where he feels he stands with any of the Goof Troop. Ace asks, "Who do you want to keep?" and Matty has to think a bit. Matty doesn't seem concerned about anyone. he decides he wants to keep his buddy, Ken around, so he's stoked. We never see him talk to Ken about his decision. We know nothing about what he thinks, except for OTT exclamations about his love. gf, hit the books cause I've decided: Matty OTT. Okay hold the phone. You're messing with me gf. Now i gotta go back and read your post. ;-)
fat little fingers		#1727	[-]
Posts: 5692 (10/29/08 9:01 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	4) If the player gets quality screen time and is either shown multiple times being strategic or shows a multi-dimensional side, then you go with CP. This one is the closest to winning me over. But, was Matty really being strategic? We never saw him talk with his supposed partner, Ken. After his meeting with Ace, he talks of not going back on his word because of his girlfriend. His scene with Ace was strategic, but it was minimal, as was his scene with Crystal. The complexity was all the lead-up to those scenes and that was around Ace, not Matty. We really got no insight into how Matty felt about his situation of having to go with Kelly over Sugar. Technically, Matty may fit some of the CP requirements, but I don't see the edit doing more than using Matty to move the Ace/Sugar story along. At the same time, his strongest scenes are about his love and devotion to his girlfriend to the point of giving up the opportunity to claim the million dollars five times over. That's OTT. I stay with Matty OTT.
ncassaro		#1728	[-]
Posts: 154 (10/29/08 9:03 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	tobificus wrote: Based on air time and comments such as Paloma's, "If Ace wins this game, I'll stop watching Survivor," I believe this is a reasonable order for who's left. 12/11 Crystal/Dan Let the Pagonging begin 10 Marcus 9 Corinne 8 Charley 7 Old guy (Professor) 6 Susie 5 Ken 4 Matty 3 Sugar 2 Randy 1 Ace This pagonging scenario really doesn't make sense to me. Randy hasn't been edited as joining any Fangs. Since Susie had an alliance with Matty, she could possibly do so though. Still, that'd force a 5-5 tie and I can't see why she'd do that. Ken/Matty/Sugar/Ace are in the minority post merge. They will need to play the idol if they want to do any pagonging. I just can't see either alliance being capable of pagoning though. The numbers are slim either way and alliances are fragile.
BlakeB717		#1729	[-]
Posts: 1059 (10/29/08 9:16 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I thought a major thing that made Matty CP was that we were shown why he made this pact with Ace. WHY would such a nice guy allign with Ace? We are told why. Matty's edit told us that he isn't stupid and is actively trying to get off the sinking boat of FANG. The love of his girlfriend and such was more tone and modivation behind his purpose; I think his edit suggested that he's in or around the end game, rather than a distraction. We got to know Matty, it wasn't all why we love him. Especially since after the IC his edit cooled off. But really, it is close. An OTT isn't entirely wrong.
BlakeB717		#1730	[-]
Posts: 1059 (10/29/08 9:16 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I thought a major thing that made Matty CP was that we were shown why he made this pact with Ace. WHY would such a nice guy allign with Ace? We are told why. Matty's edit told us that he isn't stupid and is actively trying to get off the sinking boat of FANG. The love of his girlfriend and such was more tone and modivation behind his purpose; I think his edit suggested that he's in or around the end game, rather than a distraction. We got to know Matty, it wasn't all why we love him. Especially since after the IC his edit cooled off. But really, it is close. An OTT isn't entirely wrong.
Kitty Pryde1		#1731	[-]
Posts: 6037 (10/30/08 12:32 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	... Having followed Edgic for three years now...I'm absolutely disgusted by all the Darrah support in the S7 thread. I mean, Amanda, I can understand. After all, we had Danni and Amanda had a great edit until the final episode. Alexis, I can understand, because she had important comments early on. But DARRAH?!
Kirblar		#1732	[-]
Posts: 6779 (10/30/08 12:40 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Kitty Pryde1 wrote: ... Having followed Edgic for three years now...I'm absolutely disgusted by all the Darrah support in the S7 thread. I mean, Amanda, I can understand. After all, we had Danni and Amanda had a great edit until the final episode. Alexis, I can understand, because she had important comments early on. But DARRAH?! Lill and a mystery female were spoiled as F2 pre-season.
craig		#1733	[-]
Posts: 14221 (10/30/08 3:32 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	S7 was one of the first throughly spoiled seasons, and back then spoilers were all over the board including LTS and Sucks. The Darrah love thread was full of people going on about how great she must be because she wins. But KQ and the Edgic majority went against spoilers and were right. There would have been more support for Danni too, except the Guatemala F2 spoiler only appeared well after edgic had eliminated her. Danni edit premerge was betetr than both Darrah and Alexis.
Warrior		#1734	[-]
Posts: 2705 (10/30/08 4:43 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Hit refresh if you don't see week 6.
guatemala fanfic		#1735	[-]
Posts: 3892 (10/30/08 5:27 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Technically, Matty may fit some of the CP requirements, but I don't see the edit doing more than using Matty to move the Ace/Sugar story along. At the same time, his strongest scenes are about his love and devotion to his girlfriend to the point of giving up the opportunity to claim the million dollars five times over. That's OTT. I stay with Matty OTT. Right. That's exactly what I thought too, which is why I rated him OTT at first because the scenes about the girlfriend were what stood out the most to me as well. Then I watched it back and noticed the other aspects to him that weren't as memorable the first time. But yes, I'm fine with OTT. I thought a major thing that made Matty CP was that we were shown why he made this pact with Ace. WHY would such a nice guy allign with Ace? We are told why. Matty's edit told us that he isn't stupid and is actively trying to get off the sinking boat of FANG. The love of his girlfriend and such was more tone and modivation behind his purpose; I think his edit suggested that he's in or around the end game, rather than a distraction. We got to know Matty, it wasn't all why we love him. Especially since after the IC his edit cooled off. But really, it is close. An OTT isn't entirely wrong. I definitely agree with that. Very good points, Blake! :)
Warrior		#1736	[-]
Posts: 2706 (10/30/08 8:14 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	"I thought a major thing that made Matty CP was that we were shown why he made this pact with Ace. WHY would such a nice guy allign with Ace? We are told why." OR was it just part of Ace's story making a pact with Matty? I was teetering back and forth between CP and OTT and in the end thought that Mattie's story about his girlfriend (making the ring) pushed his edit OTT. I think you guys made the right call... More importantly is his visibility has been 4,4,5 in episodes 4, 5 and 6...episodes in which the winner should be in a cool down mode.
pastordice	The Edgic Cheeseburger (Episode 6)	#1737	[-]
Posts: 748 (10/30/08 9:33 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	The Edgic Cheeseburger (Episode 6) A weekly attempt to refocus on the foundational aspects of Edgic in a complexly simple fashion. For reference see this The Bun (VTdiff) Ken Hoang .10 Marcus Lehman .27 Randy Bailey .27 Matty Whitmore .56 Sugar Kiper .69 Crystal Cox .71 Ace Gordon .88 Dan Kay .95 Charlie Herschel .96 Corinne Kaplan 1.06 Bob Crowley 1.77 Susie Smith 1.77 *The Beef (Ratings Scores) Marcus Lehman +5 Randy Bailey +4 Ken Hoang +3 Crystal Cox +2 Matty Whitmore +1 Ace Gordon 0 Bob Crowley -2 Charlie Herschel -3 Susie Smith -6 Dan Kay -7 Corinne Kaplan -8 Sugar Kiper -8 The Cheese (Distraction/Complexity Theory) Likely Hidden (A) Marcus Ken Debate Worthy (B) Matty Randy Sidelined (C) Corinne Charlie Bob Susie Likely Distraction (D) Dan Sugar Ace Crystal The Contenders** Marcus (2nd, 1st, A) Ken (1st, 3rd, A) Randy (2nd, 2nd, B) The EC official episode 6 pick: Marcus Dice
Oowatanite		#1738	[-]
Posts: 6161 (10/30/08 9:36 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I don't know why but I always get hungry after a post by Dice.
pastordice	Thoughts	#1739	[-]
Posts: 749 (10/30/08 10:39 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Thanks to FLF and all my edgic peeps for letting me mess around with the Cheeseburger stuff in these hallowed halls. My attempt with the EC is not to undermine the amazing process that happens here but to simplify my thinking back to the foundations for myself (and others like me) who get lost in all the extra factors and multi-paragraph discussions that can get a little time consuming. Again, I'm not belittling these things or saying they aren't a valuable part of the modern edgic process, just that I wondered if the basic principles could be accessed in a simpler form (ie let some basic math and comparative analysis do the heavy lifting). The result? Well, same as doing the heavy lifting yourself it appears. The "simplified" version has come to the same result as any edgician would this year, Marcus is clearly the best candidate. The only difference, I think, is that Randy and Ken seem to be much closer in this analysis than our general consensus. If I would take one thing from this it would be to not so quickly dismiss players who are obviously (and in both cases curiously) being both hidden and featured. One of my favorite edgic posters (as in people who post, not pictures taped to my wall) is Colleenlover . CL has always had an amazing knack for understanding how stories are told and developed. CL gets an editor's brain (maybe kept in a jar, for all I know, with probes attached to it for research) better than almost any of us. I, on the other hand, am a numbers guy. I like to attempt to boil things down to principles, values, and equations. While story geniuses like CL are frolicking the the field of butterfly effect earthquakes I like to stay locked into my bunker of facts and figures where no one can touch me. It's dangerous out there in the world of multiple outcomes and chaos theory and I'm just plain afraid I might get hurt. I say all of this to say that The EC is only meant to be a look from my side of the edgic spectrum and will never tell the whole story. It's a dispassionate process that results in a direct and specific answer based on the original editing principles edgic is founded on, and could never offer a comprehensive look. Keeping this in mind, if the EC points at Marcus (and allows possibilities for Ken, Randy and maybe even Matty) what are the possible agendas and stories that the editors would be leading us too if any of them won. I'm personally having difficulty rectifying a Matty win with any kind of editing sleight of hand, I used to think he was a bigger personality being dialed back, but I'm beginning to think he is a boring personality that will come forward when the editors need him. Randy and Ken on the other hand do seem to have some distinct manipulation going on with them. Would it really be hard to see either of them picking up more story and becoming the surprise winner? Ken (who still reminds me of Napoleon Dynamite) seems to have been needlessly featured in the opening episode, as if his presence had more to do with "we need you to remember this guy", and less to do with "here's something crucial to the story". And Randy has been getting some real nuanced work on painting him as a player, and it feels as if his harshness might, for the most part, be something the editors are toning down (but still giving us glimpses of, especially when he speaks truth). These again are just my brief thoughts on the few players that the EC has left in contention, and like I said, story ain't my strong suit, so I would love to hear what you think the editors are doing with the 4 players left that won't get you laughed out of edgic if you suggest they might win (well not by me at least, I can't speak for the rest of the Sucks community, nor, now that I think of it, would I ever want to) Thoughts?
TheLurkerSpeaks		#1740	[-]
Posts: 1359 (10/30/08 10:55 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	PD, I think your shortcut may have some validity. Certainly, it agrees that Marcus is well-positioned, which we all do even if some of us are beginning to have doubts that he actually wins. Obviously, given my last update of winning potential, I agree Ken is someone to watch. If Marcus somehow doesn't win, it looks like him to me. As for Randy, I would agree he's definitely getting manipulated editing. I still think he's being presented as the decoy, which I define as a distraction whose overall edit has not been simplified. Think S4 Kathy, S6 Rob C., S8 Rob M., S13 Jonathan. (There are others to a lesser degree.) They generally prove key to the story which is being told, but they do not win.

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon