S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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guatemala fanfic	Corinne Close Call = OTT	#3061	[-]
Posts: 3945 (11/19/08 6:23 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Seems like a bit of a pattern here, doesn't it? I have sided with OTT on all three of the close calls, and if you think I'm giving OTT out too liberally or where it's unwarranted, I apologize for that, but I'm specifically looking through all the guidelines to explain why I feel it fits. I have looked at other people's arguments as well, so I want to be clear that I'm by no means just using my own ratings. I went through the episode again to make sure that I'm considering everything... Having said that, my decision for Corinne is OTT, and I'm prepared for a backlash from Corinne's supporters. But Phoenix made a great case in her posts, and I'll make my case below. Actually, I realized that Phoenix pretty much said everything I was going to right here, so I won't belabor it: What to say about Corinne. The editors have been trying very hard to paint her as someone WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO LIKE... she is being painted as a "Bitch" (which is really just a type of female villian). This is a classic sign of an OTT. OTT are the people we are supposed to love or hate... or love to hate.... And Corinne really falls into that category.. Heck...she even has SPV from this very episode saying that she is "horrendous"... that's a pretty strong word to describe someone. Say it with me... HORRRRRR....ENNNNN...DAAAAAAHHHHS. Corinne has OTT guideline #1 wrapped up (see above). Even though I ignore OTT Guidelines #2 & #3 because they are concerning TONE... and TONE should be addressed using the TONE rankings and not RATING rankings... I would say she even have guideline #2 wrapped up... she WAS negative this episode. Check out the skoffingskeptic's wonderful post on the Negative Math for Corinne. Lastly...OTT Guideline #4... strategy not expressed with much internal conflict. Well... i think that sums up Corinne this episode. Everything Corinne did srategically was shown to be very one sided for Corinne... everything from the condescending "i know, I know" to Sugar to the "I'v ebeen mean to her for 25 days, and i'm nice for 1 day and she's sold...Sugar is a moron" statement shows that Corinne really has no interest in anyone else other than herself, Charlie and Marcus (as she herself put it). Please refer to me Previous OTT post for more info: link I think OTT is a better fit here.... we didn't see any internal conflicts or compex emotions... it was very flat, and very "all about me" (I don;t want to go home... I only care about my alliance, sending bob becuase I THINK he'll find it, blah blah) ...even her reward sequence was "all about Corinne" (I paid attention to that GIRL...Even though that's NOT WHAT I NORMALLY DO!!!!) so CP can't work here.... additionally, MOR is not a good fit here .... she wasn't AVERAGE, She wasn' DOWN-PLAYED, She wasn't ON HOLD, she wasn't just "KIND OF THERE"... she was definately emphasized, and she definately had some serious focus.... and a LARGE part of it wasn't good. But I do have a summary of everything Corinne was involved in... FANG SCENE CORINNE: So we got treemail this morning. I was really hoping that it was gonna be merge. Something merge-esque because I want to see Marcus again. The Kota alliance from the get-go was me, Charlie, and Marcus. As long as that's in tact, I don't really care who goes home. REWARD CHALLENGE (Corinne reacts to Marcus being voted out) Corinne: I'm pissed, yeah. He didn't deserve to leave the game. Ken: Who does? Who does deserve to leave the game? Susie: It's a game. We all deserve it. (Charlie talks; then Ken responds) Corinne: It's not that anyone deserves it, it's just that he earned his right to be here, I think. REWARD CORINNE: All we're thinking is food, but instead they start beating us with leaves that are covered in water and stripping our clothes off of us to wash us down. Like, you felt like a human being again. It was nice; it was really nice. CORINNE: And then we went to the next Tribal ceremony, and this little girl; she was very very cute. She was like too small to like follow everybody and like hang out, so I paid some attention to her and then she was like glued to me, which was cute, um, but I'd be the last person anyone would think would like chum up to a two year-old. Corinne: I'm glad we got to share this together. Strategy Scene (Sugar and Corinne talking) Sugar: I can't live with Randy anymore. I can't live with him. Corinne: I know that he's annoying, Sugar; I know. But I feel you on this, but I'm afraid that we might shoot ourselves in this foot. Literally, after this vote, we would be even. Like, we would be up one. We could still get rid of him. (Charlie joins in) Corinne: She wants to get rid of Randy. (Sugar and Charlie speak) Charlie: We can do Randy next. Corinne: That's what I was saying. Like, after this vote, we could get rid of Randy immediately. Like, I want you to be comfortable, so I care about your opinion. I mean, I will do what you want to do. CORINNE: My whole plan is just to stay on Sugar because she is the swing vote. Not only do I have to act interested in what Sugar's saying; I have to act like I care about her. CORINNE: Sugar is so weak and naive and gullible. I've been nasty to her for 25 days. I was nice to her one day and she's sold, so it doesn't even make sense that she buys it cause she's such a moron. This was the biggest scene that contributed to the OTT feeling for me, because as Phoenix said, she was trashing Sugar in confessionals and pretending to care about her, when really she was just using Sugar for a vote, and she expressed no remorse for it. She was reveling in the fact that she thought she convinced Sugar because Sugar was such a moron. Matty and Susie also said she was "horrendous" and "awful" which contributed to the OTT feeling that I think the editors were trying to create. Now, even though I'm giving Corinne OTT, I felt that her edit was more tended to than I originally noticed, and the confessional about the girl at the Reward really stuck out to me. It almost seemed like there was supposed to be something more positive to it that got left off of the end. But note that I rated Corinne OTTM, so the fact that I sided with OTT is not just because I'm trying to write her off with an OTTN. All I can do is look at the edit and the guidelines and go with what I feel fits the best, so I really do apologize if anyone disagrees with my final decisions - I don't think my opinion counts more than anyone else's, but unfortunately, for this week, this is the situation that we're all left with. So Crystal, Corinne, and Bob, all OTT. Thank you.
poop		#3062	[-]
Posts: 17 (11/19/08 6:25 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	except she obviously hasn't been a "raging bitch" all season, and 100% of that is limited to confessionals. I just don't see how it's not obvious that she has had a negative edit lately
guatemala fanfic		#3063	[-]
Posts: 3946 (11/19/08 6:35 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	gf, The TC was a reported event - it does not make Crystal an emphasized caricature. Besides, whether she had a confessional or not, both she and Susie were very much a part of the "happy family" scene pre-merge. Yes, Kenny was the emphasis of that scene, but if people are going to continue to bash Crystal with the old Fang tribal edit, surely that scene serves as a counter and not just for Kenny. I also disagree that Randy was shown to be "right" in his comments. What were we shown in the edit? GC was shown refusing to lead at all, not running the tribe "like a gang", and at that point, Crystal was underemphasized. Besides, that's ancient history in terms of where the story is now. In any case, Crystal doesn't argue at TC as she has in the past - in contrast to her other outbursts, this one is quite tame, and the edit does give us justification as we see Randy making fun of her out of context on numerous occasions this episode. (My opinion, but Randy's list is rather lame if "running the tribe like a gang" is the best he can come up with. But I can't say with certainty whether that's the editors' intent or not because it is just a reported scene.) Truthfully, I see Crystal as MOR this episode, a foil used to build up Randy's edit as a disagreeable, obnoxious personality where the TC scene was much more about him than her. ETA - Here's yet another gratuitous OTT being put on Crystal when the editors have gone out of their way this season to round her edit out. I think people are confusing what they term OTT moments with an OTT characterization. Crystal's confrontational nature is certainly part of her edit, but in many cases, it has been merely reported rather than specifically toned. In most episodes where she has had outbursts at TC, we've at least been shown her point of view. This episode, it was enough that we saw Randy's continued putdowns to justify her confrontation. I still think she loses out to Ken because I think she's stood out too much, but otherwise she's not in bad Edgic shape at all. Compare her edit to Corinne and how the negativity you feel is derived - there's a major difference. Crystal's worst scenes are reported events (that could well show up at the final TC) - Corinne's are confessionals of nastiness. Corinne is OTT overall, Crystal is MOR/CP, leaning toward the former. I'm sorry, TheLurkerSpeaks. I wouldn't have my opinion count more than anyone else, but I happen to view Crystal's edit in this episode differently. I don't know how many OTTs Crystal has on the official chart, but this is only the second one I've given her and the last one was in Episode 5, so it's not like I'm just throwing OTTs onto her. I rate the edit how I see it, and I apologize that you have a different view of it. My initial instinct on her edit was MOR as well (after one viewing), but then I reviewed the criteria and thought OTT fit better and that's still how I feel.
Oowatanite		#3064	[-]
Posts: 6361 (11/19/08 7:15 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Crystal's confrontational nature is certainly part of her edit, but in many cases, it has been merely reported rather than specifically toned. . . . Crystal's worst scenes are reported events. Preview of scene from next episode Randy and Crystal shown arguing at camp. Crystal starts screaming obscenities and shoves Randy. Randy backs off and turns to enter the shelter. Crystal rushes at him from behind and pushes him into the fire. The Survivor docs show up and treat Randy for burns. What rating does Crystal get for this particular scene ? Remember, Crystal just has a "confrontational nature" and this scene was simply "reporting". Answer : If Crystal does not say one other word the entire episode, her rating will be MOR2. If, however, Crystal is shown smiling and celebrating with the rest of the "good alliance" Kenny, Sugar, Susie and Matty, then her rating will be MORP2. Oh, and needless to say, Randy is clearly OTT, with the arguing and the burns resulting in a neutral (though mixed) tone.
wallduck		#3065	[-]
Posts: 469 (11/19/08 7:55 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Here's yet another gratuitous OTT being put on Crystal when the editors have gone out of their way this season to round her edit out I agree that Crystal wasn't OTT in this episode. It's probably true that she's getting some carry-over, automatic ratings, just as Sugar has gotten carry-over OTTP ratings. But that kind of carry-over doesn't come out of nowhere: it's the result of previous editing that has created an impression, even a prejudice, in the minds of viewers, including many of us. And that reflection of editorial intent tells us something about Crystal's and Sugar's edgic fates. Crystal really is an interesting character. I don't remember such a wide variety of interpretations of an edit. An edgic Rorschach.
fat little fingers		#3066	[-]
Posts: 5741 (11/19/08 9:30 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Excellent job, gff! You bent over backwards to cover each call completely and I know you're really busy these days. Again, I'm glad I passed on doing the Close Calls this week. I gave MORs to Crystal and Bob mostly because they made a weak impression on me. But, it was a quick rewatch. I think your step by step approach is hard to fault. Of course there are those who have different opinions, which is unavoidable. But your call of all OTTs are well grounded and thoroughly analysed. Crystal really is an interesting character. I don't remember such a wide variety of interpretations of an edit. An edgic Rorschach. Agreed.
chad6		#3067	[-]
Posts: 1940 (11/19/08 9:36 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I agree, good job gf! Crystal was OTT. Great explanations as usual. Quick question for someone bored: Why is Ken the predicted winner over Matty? To me it seems like Matty is going to win it all.
guatemala fanfic		#3068	[-]
Posts: 3947 (11/19/08 9:51 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Thank you very much, FLF and chad6. I appreciate it! :) Excellent job, gff! You bent over backwards to cover each call completely and I know you're really busy these days. Yes, thankfully only 1 more week of courses and then exams! Then I can breathe a sigh of relief for a bit.
Phoenix1269		#3069	[-]
Posts: 307 (11/19/08 10:21 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	nice job GF! i can't argue with the OTT's for any of them... I love how you stepped it all out! Thanks for making the time for us this week... Good luck with the rest of your courses!!!
TheLurkerSpeaks		#3070	[-]
Posts: 1409 (11/19/08 10:26 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	guatemala fanfic wrote: Crystal Cox INV (0%), UTR (16.7%), CP (0%), MOR (38.9%), OTT (44.4%) I'll start with the most clear-cut one first (working on the other two after this): The only time in the episode we saw Crystal was at Tribal Council, where she confronted Randy pretty openly. A few times during the episode, she got negative SPV, mostly from Randy, who called her things like "Sasquatch" and "T-Rex." What was really important to me was that Crystal had no confessionals at all, so we didn't get any personal insight from her or anything to balance out the scene at Tribal Council. We heard confessionals from Randy about hating Crystal, but we didn't get her side of the story at all, and she was made out to be the one who looked bad: she was simplified as OTTN. OK, first of all, TC was not the only time we saw Crystal this episode. You continue to ignore the post RC scene that Ken narrates where he refers to Crystal and Susie as beautiful women. Just because she is not the focus of the scene doesn't mean she isn't noticeably present, and the whole scene is positive, a strong contrast to the prior existence at Fang. Randy's name-calling was not justified by the edit. In fact, those with him didn't even know who he was referring to. Unsupported name-calling reflects back on the person doing it, not the person it is directed toward. Crystal was not made to look bad at TC relative to Randy. It is just more fodder that the two dislike each other. Crystal is relatively undeveloped this episode, but she's not presented as a caricature either. Are we meant to love her? No. Are we meant to hate her? Not really. Randy and Corinne are the ones presented as the villain. I think it is clear that many here have no idea what OTT really means.
craig		#3071	[-]
Posts: 14330 (11/19/08 10:47 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Matty and Susie also said she was "horrendous" and "awful" which contributed to the OTT feeling that I think the editors were trying to create. Interesting that some pro-Fang edgickers take that unsupported bashing of Corinne as gospel, but think Randy is a big meany for complaining about Corinne's treatment of him the first 9 days. Hmmm... I guess if Bob and Crystal are OTT, I can't complain about Corinne :) The important thing is that she's M not N, and your recap shows that.
TheLurkerSpeaks		#3072	[-]
Posts: 1410 (11/19/08 10:54 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oowatanite wrote: Crystal's confrontational nature is certainly part of her edit, but in many cases, it has been merely reported rather than specifically toned. . . . Crystal's worst scenes are reported events. Preview of scene from next episode Randy and Crystal shown arguing at camp. Crystal starts screaming obscenities and shoves Randy. Randy backs off and turns to enter the shelter. Crystal rushes at him from behind and pushes him into the fire. The Survivor docs show up and treat Randy for burns. What rating does Crystal get for this particular scene ? Remember, Crystal just has a "confrontational nature" and this scene was simply "reporting". Answer : If Crystal does not say one other word the entire episode, her rating will be MOR2. If, however, Crystal is shown smiling and celebrating with the rest of the "good alliance" Kenny, Sugar, Susie and Matty, then her rating will be MORP2. Oh, and needless to say, Randy is clearly OTT, with the arguing and the burns resulting in a neutral (though mixed) tone. Ha! Very funny, Oo. When they actually show that scene, I'll let you know. Nothing about the editing can be determined without context. I know you are trying to present a reported scene where Crystal is clearly in the wrong, but the problem with that is that if Crystal is clearly in the wrong, then it isn't comparable with what we've been seeing at TC, particularly this last episode. When Crystal blew up at Kelly, we had already been provided Crystal's point of view on her %%*!% and her concern that others would use them as an excuse against her. Kelly herself was presented negatively so while the forcefulness of Crystal's reaction was hard to watch, it wasn't presented as undeserved. When Crystal argued with Ace and Matty, it referred to shown events which were followed by Ken stating how he didn't like the way Ace and Matty were treating Crystal, and Sugar summed up the TC discussion by saying they were all being petty. The thing is if we are meant definitely to side against Crystal in an OTT fashion, the editing is rarely subtle. See Corinne. In your hypothetical scene, even if Crystal says nothing else, we'll get comments from others (besides Randy) that will frame how we're meant to feel about the action. If Crystal is the Edgic Rohrshach, that itself would suggest she's not OTT.
TheLurkerSpeaks		#3073	[-]
Posts: 1411 (11/19/08 10:58 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	craig wrote: Matty and Susie also said she was "horrendous" and "awful" which contributed to the OTT feeling that I think the editors were trying to create. Interesting that some pro-Fang edgickers take that unsupported bashing of Corinne as gospel, but think Randy is a big meany for complaining about Corinne's treatment of him the first 9 days. Hmmm... I guess if Bob and Crystal are OTT, I can't complain about Corinne :) The important thing is that she's M not N, and your recap shows that. Note the difference this episode is that you have several people backing up the opinion of Corinne with confirmation in her own confessionals. (That's support by the way, craig.) Randy actually doesn't make a strong case for why he's mad at Crystal, and others can't even tell at first who he's referring to in his bashing efforts because they are made completely out of context.
NickF227		#3074	[-]
Posts: 5165 (11/19/08 11:07 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Corrine support is exactly like Amanda support. Amanda support. All. Over. Again.
chad6		#3075	[-]
Posts: 1952 (11/19/08 11:22 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	To be fair, Amanda never had an INV1, let alone 2.
getting real		#3076	[-]
Posts: 1358 (11/20/08 12:30 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Good arguments re. close calls but may I suggest a small procedural change for the post-season? 55% majorities are fine in a two-horse race where an absolute majority is required; however, that kind of requirement seems excessive when a relative majority is required in the case of three or more outcomes. So what does everyone think about close calls being limited to cases where the difference between the top two options is less than, say, 5-7 percentage points? That would eliminate a lot of unnecessary angst trying to make a determination after the edgic tribe has already spoken fairly unambiguously. What does everyone else think?
craig		#3077	[-]
Posts: 14332 (11/20/08 12:39 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Kelly and Matty have scenes backing Randy's view of Crystal much more strongly than one negative word uttered by certain folks about Corinne. Yeah, Corinne is self-aware that she wasn't nice to somebody, but Crystal would never admit it to herself. She just say others were "evil" for going against her (re scene with Matty). Yes, 55% or a 10% lead over the 2nd most popular option should be the cut-off for close calls.
RobVanStratus		#3078	[-]
Posts: 7209 (11/20/08 1:35 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	NickF227 wrote: Corrine support is exactly like Amanda support. Amanda support. All. Over. Again. The only difference is this time there are no spoilers to point to Corinne making the finals or winning, unlike Amanda which had spoilers flowing through this thread non stop about her edit pointing her to victory. And to be fair, Amanda totally had INV episodes, but Edgic looked past it to tweak her ratings to keep her in the mix because many posters read spoilers and thought she won. She was non existent the entire game until the F7 when she tried to act like she thought of booting James, when Todd suggested it several days before that, so to give her ratings of UTR was pathetic. And before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, there are NO spoilers on who makes the finals. So don't fucking flip your shit and think I'm just saying Corinne doesn't make the finals for sure, because ANYONE can make the finals. No one knows for sure, either by spoilers or even by looking at edits.
round peg		#3079	[-]
Posts: 54 (11/20/08 2:29 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Rob you an idiot
theskoffingskeptic		#3080	[-]
Posts: 25 (11/20/08 3:01 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Keep on posting Craig. Even though I hear an imaginary sigh of exasperation before any reply to your posts, I think the devil's advocate position ( literally this time :) keeps us all on our toes.

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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