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 getting real |
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Posts: 1366 (11/21/08 7:16 PM) Registered User |
OO wrote:
OO, if the large, bold, red lettering means that you think eighth place is better than being an immunity or two away from the finale, then I admire your emboldened position! Don't forget, Bob was the alternative boot in this episode and he'd already seen Charlie leave instead of Randy. Bob would have deduced correctly that the Fang 5 might find letting Randy and Corinne hang around less dangerous than letting Bob stay. |
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 Jedijake |
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Posts: 5310 (11/21/08 8:05 PM) MESS member |
If history has taught us anything, Sugar should be next to go. The excessive laughing is reminiscent of Ozzy's reaction to Eliza/Jason's
"stick". Look how far that got Ozzy the next time around.
Of course, if history had taught us anything, Marcus would still be in the game and would have this season already wrapped up. Yeah right. |
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Green Coffee |
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Posts: 101 (11/21/08 8:17 PM) Registered user |
getting real wrote: Totally agree! Like I said before, given Bob's position now as the somewhat likeable and crafty old guy, he's the LAST person any Fang should let get further in the game. Randy and Corrine had/have been mean enough that they would never get any votes from a NuFang member, but Bob might. Thus, playing for 6th is about the best Bob can do right now. Once he gets to that 6 spot, he needs to look for cracks and try to overthrow someone in their core 3 (or win immunity, if that's even possible). How is this slim possibility any worse than having a good chance to go before Corrine? Since tone is a big issue this time, here's where I weigh in: Bob: P Randy: N (not NN because some of his whining was shown as justified and some of his OTT rudeness was part of his strategy) Sugar: N Crystal: Neutral/P (but leaning more neutral - just straight reporting of a TV gold scene) Matty: Neutral Corrine: Weaker N (lumped with Randy as having been fooled badly and still portraying bitchiness when tone is given) Ken: Neutral Susie: Neutral Another thought: Because guidelines for tone are primarily on the basis of overall season impressions (too N to win overall, or too P to win overall), and because previous episodes' tone unquestionably influences later tone ratings anyway, should ratings for tone even be necessary on an episode by episode basis? Should weekly tone ratings be more of a cumulative overall season rating? If a player is getting too P overall, denote them with PP. If they are getting too N, note them as NN. If they have a mixed tone overall, M. If they lean one way or another but not too far, P or N. Obviously, the emerging guideline of M in a single episode early=death (which I am becoming a believer in) would need to be dealt with. However, maybe we should work with the tide coming in (overall tone influencing moment tone) instead of fighting it? If the guidelines are holistic, should the measures be segmented? Just another thought to chew on. |
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JFRX |
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Posts: 69 (11/21/08 9:02 PM) Registered User |
I agree with Apollo Italiano and Kitty Pryde1 that the best rating for Randy is CPNN.
As I was watching the episode, my first impression of Randy was that he started off as CP, explaining his strategy in angering the others and hoping for the idol. He seemed to have an OTT section when he flipped out at Suzie, but at Tribal Council he was CP all over again as the tribe was asked about Randy's strategy and even Crystal conceded that she would respect Randy if his pissing people off were actually his strategy. I think the key to pinpointing Randy's edit this episode is that that his rating should be viewed separately from his tone. The examples that people are giving to support Randy being OTT are actually evidence of his extreme negativity and this distinction should be hilighted and reflected in his final rating. Regardless of whether Sugar was seen as positive or negative, the editors spent an entire episode detailing Randy's plans when the viewer knew from the beginning that they were futile and was able to mock them. The editing explained where Randy was coming from, but also battered the viewers over the head with references to Randy as a 'troll' and comical music that encouraged the viewer to side against him as he received his long-overdue comeuppance. The extreme negativity that many people are seeing, however, does not (and should not) negate the obvious complexity of Randy's character as shown in this episode-an NN tone rating does not by definition cause him to be an OTT. His argument with Suzie seemed irrational and OTT because of how overwhelmingly negative it was, but it was still completely in line with Randy's strategy as explained in his confessionals. Yes, we supposed to think his strategy was stupid and pointless, and hate him for stirring up unnecessary trouble. Yes, we were supposed to laugh as his 'burn the camp down' stratey came back to bite him at Tribal Council where he did receive the votes as planned but was duped and unable to save himself. But we were also supposed to understand why Randy did what he did. If they were trying to make Randy seem OTT, we would have had more two-dimensional SPV from Crystal and Sugar- I'm sure that they would have provided many more scathing confessionals about Randy. But instead, what were we shown? Many complex and strategic confessionals from Randy, explaining his actions. Thus the appropriate rating is CP, and not OTT. |
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guatemala fanfic |
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Posts: 3953 (11/21/08 9:14 PM) |
Hi JFRX! :)
Very well said points - I have not even attempted ratings yet but you bring up some things to consider... |
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colleenlover |
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Posts: 8806 (11/21/08 9:43 PM) Registered User |
it's interesting -I watched this one again, and while there's lot of good stuff -the whole thing almost seems put on hold in terms of even pinpointing
a winner.
hate to give Craig an inch, but lots of potential with Corrine -obviously, "nothing tastes better than five hundred dollars... expect a million." But then at TC we get the shot of her giving the wink to Marcus and Charlie before the plan blows up in her face -still leaning that she was being used as part of the punch line. Crystal answering Probst question if things were "revving up." Sugar's analysis of Matty, and Kenny's one confessional (while still strictly reporting) had insight. Matty's plight presented by Corrine and Randy. And with the intro for the recap it was practically crib notes on how the idols worked -probably in order to walk the lay man viewer through the complication of the episode. But to me the episode was really in a vaccum, keeping it in the primary three days. |
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beatles20147 |
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Posts: 11969 (11/21/08 10:02 PM) Registered User |
From the time Crystal started her voting confessional to the time Randy has his torch snuffed, there were 12 cuts to Sugar laughing / smirking / holding her head down to control her laughing / etc. That's a fair point but you have to take into account that JFP is the most negative character of all time and more importantly that Survivor in 2003 is a different show than Survivor in 2008. The show definitely tries to have everything as over the top as it possibly can nowadays--take Eliza's reaction shots when the votes for Ozzy started coming in. Burnett would never have allowed something like that to be shown in the pre-S11 days of the show. Nowadays, Probst would kill for someone to show up to TC drunk; it's a "made for TV moment." In his EW.com blog, he mentioned something about when GC disappeared before the challenge, Probst wanted the tribe to go without him because it would've made for good TV. But if GC was there and pulled that in Thailand, the thought of him not showing up to a challenge would be unheard of. Hell, Burnett flipped out when the two tribes interacted at a challenge in Outback, and by Guatemala, they were making impromptu visits to the opposing tribe's camp. What would have been looked out in a bad light five years ago is now embraced by the show. Negativity and conflict are not really looked down upon in modern Survivor the way they used to be. And I'm not saying this as an attack on the current state of the show or as a "The older seasons were better" thing, but it's just the (d?)evolution of the show itself. |
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9RedWing19 |
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Posts: 2305 (11/21/08 10:16 PM) Registered User |
Beatles, I guess that makes me "old school" (which considering my age is not inappropriate).
I'm not much for taunting / trash talking in pro sports either. |
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fat little fingers |
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Posts: 5745 (11/21/08 10:29 PM) Registered User |
For those who see Sugar in N terms this episode, I offer my take on...
Auction: the Battle of Sugar and Randy Randy buys his beer. 
Sugar, "I really don't like beer that much. I just wanted to up the anti on him!" (Big focus on her laughing.)  ...
Jeff helps Bob out by telling him which way to go to Exile Island. The edit inserts the sound of Sugar and Susie (?) laughing. 
Sugar outbids Randy for peanut butter and chocolate. "Just what she wanted!", says Crystal.   
The Cookie Scene: Randy buys the cookies. Jeff, "You just bought this for the tribe. You just made a lot of people happy." Randy, "I can have them all to myself if I want." Jeff, "For the tribe, ...Randy." Jeff continues to stare at bad-boy Randy's back.   
 
 
Randy offers one to Sugar. Sugar, "I don't want one, thank you." Randy, "Are you sure?" Sugar, "I couldn't possibly." (This makes sense in that she still has a plate of peanut butter and chocolate on her lap.) 
Randy to Susie, "Would you like one?" Susie, "Sure!" 
Corinne (in an exaggerated gesture), "Randy, this is so awesome!" (Remember that we just watched Jeff have to remind Randy to share.) 
Randy turns back to Sugar: Randy, "You sure, Sugar?" Sugar, "Matty's getting it." Randy, "It's not yours to give to Matty. I'm tha boss!"   
Randy to Corinne, "You can have two if you'd like." Corinne, "Aww... I'll take one and a half. Can I do that?" Randy, "Sure!"  
Jeff, "So, Randy, you're giving part of yours to Corinne?" Randy, "Uh, Sugar doesn't have one. I offered her one and she didn't take one. So, they're mine!" Randy offers the other half to Matty who mumbles 'thank you' through a stuffed mouth.  
Randy to Sugar, "Last chance. You can have a full one." Sugar, "Thank you." (Hands it to Matty.)   
Jeff, "Randy offers Sugar his own cookie. She takes it and gives it to Matty." Randy, "Y-, Would you like to repeat that!?" Jeff, "Wow." (Jeff has a big grin.) Jeff, "I think it worked out the way it worked out." (Camera shows Sugar smiling back.)  
Corinne, "Here, take some of mine." Randy, "No, this is better for me." (Indicating his spaghetti.) 
Jeff, "I suggest you start eating those quickly, because this auction is over!" (Triumphant smile from Sugar.)  
Cut to a Randy confessional: "Sugar, she can kiss my ass! /break/ If she thinks /break/ I was bad before, I'm just gonna turn it up a notch. /break/ There's a lotta fight left in this dawg!" 
The auction closes with an unnecessary scene: Randy is shown putting a few dollars on the table for Jeff. It looks like a tip. Jeff, "Have a good night." Jeff is shown staring at Randy as he leaves. Fade to black on Jeff staring at Randy's back.   
  
Two long stares at bad-boy Randy's back in one segment. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Make of this what you want. I offer it as documentation and verbatim dialogue, as best I can. I agree that the shot of Sugar laughing at Randy and especially the totally unnecessary laughter, (possibly dubbed in, but certainly cranked up in volume), when Bob had to leave, could be seen in a negative way. But to simplify her edit as N-negative is to throw out what is useful to Edgic. This auction is above all a battle between Sugar and Randy, and Sugar is the one shown to triumph. Every successful move is verified and backed up by her implied eye contact with Jeff and their shared smiles at key points. This episode Sugar gets "Just what she wanted.", to quote Crystal. Sugar probably has too weak an Ep1 &2 edit. And Sugar is probably peaking in the middle of the season, too soon for the winner. But, the original Fang has been bashed for half the season as the goof, loser, whiner group. Only Kenny seems to have a story of growth and maturity. But he also brags and proudly calls himself a rat. Sugar has been the real outsider. Neither a member of the original Fang or the Onions. Her edit has been of two Sugars: the one the other players see and think they know. And the one we know. At last week's TC, (correct me if I'm wrong. I took no notes.), she tells Jeff that she knows everyone else, but they don't know her. It's been her theme since her first trip to EI: She's on the outside, underestimated by everyone, and is smarter and stronger than they think. Not a bad story for a winner. (My winner choice is still Kenny.) |
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trinity17888 |
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Posts: 590 (11/21/08 10:32 PM) Registered User |
Since we saw this boot coming from the beginning of the episode, I was thinking I might enjoy it, but quite honestly, it was very hollow. There was so much
piling on, from Crystal's aggressive, self-aggrandizing yelling to Sugar's ridiculous 'loser' sign.
Yes, Randy is a jerk, but he was going anyway, so Crystal easily came in a close second to Randy's jerkiness. She can't be seen as anything but negative and Sugar, at least for this episode, was gunning for third place in the jerk hierarchy. I also thought her cookie giveaway to Matty was a miserable and very smug move. |
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OnlyTheHunter |
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Posts: 1854 (11/21/08 10:35 PM) Edgician |
Redwing, you don't like taunting, but as I take it you are a hockey fan, what about fist fighting? :-)
Michael |
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craig |
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Posts: 14341 (11/21/08 10:35 PM) Registered User |
Corinne. The CP is duh. The N is the tricky part, but I'm going for it. She was associated with super negative Randy and said that she hates everyone.Then I hope you gave Sugar lots of Ns premerge for ehr association with negative Ace. I reality, that was a huge part of why she wasn't popular with the rest of Kota, but edgic rightly doesn't give N by association. Corinne was a huge contrast to both randy and sugar at the auction, with her calm demenor and focus on the game. getting fooled by Sugar's dumb practical joke doesn't an n make either. |
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trinity17888 |
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Posts: 591 (11/21/08 10:49 PM) Registered User |
fat little fingers wrote:This is the look of a Junior high school student who enjoys being mean for no valid reason. Not triumphant, but pure, smug and simple. |
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colleenlover |
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Posts: 8807 (11/21/08 11:53 PM) Registered User |
I just think people are overthinking it drastically. You can hate what happened, but I think that has more to do with most of us having half a brain and can
connect the dots from what is presented and what is actually happening out there.
Randy (and by extension Corrine) is the punching bag- and editing probably oversold it. When watching this initially, I thought people would be giving Sugar more constant OTTP for this episode with the obvious intent Randy bad, Sugar good. I thought she was CP. But I thought there would be a lot of eyerolling OTTP ratings for her as a hard CBS sell like Rupert. I still think it was CBS overselling. (I personally felt bad for Randy, and felt more badly for him because of the edit they were doing to him and using him for a storyline) Just in terms of the future, when you have the OTTN character, it's going to be backed up by other's comments -we'll be hit over the head with it. I think Sugar edit was in full on spin to make us cheer. (just because you don't, doesn't mean the intent isn't there-Rupert usually made me puke but I could clearly see what the show was trying to sell me). But more importantly, what are we seeing to come back to the endgame -jury versus finalist? Crystal has things in spades; Kenny? Sugar and her mouthing, "Sorry" to Charlie. Does Matty have a delimma? If Corrine did make it, do we need to see tension? Craig has pointed out the Danni win -and Danni had nothing because the whole final TC was about Steph. But if Corrine made it she has Randy, Charlie, Marcus most likely voting for her? Wouldn't we need to see early doubt from them about her to wonder if they would still vote for her (even though it would be obvious?) Tension has to be there. I'm still convinced the final three is in the Clean Slate group -Kenny, Sugar, Matty and Crystal. (K,S,C certainly all have story issues that would be revisited from juror to finalist) |
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kenc333 |
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Posts: 4925 (11/22/08 12:07 AM) |
I think that Sugar/Crystal's laughing is meant to agree with the general audience, whereas something like Mookie/Lisi laughing at Yau-Man in Fiji was the
kind of laughing that would come off negatively.
And did anyone catch in the previous episode recap, the highlighting of Sugar/Susie/Matty/Ken/Crystal when they were sitting at tribal council? It almost looked like there was a sun shining behind them, while the others were sitting in darkness... |
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scepticA |
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Posts: 1440 (11/22/08 12:34 AM) Registered User |
Kitty Pride, I'm surprised you went with CPNN as the Randy rating, because you seemed against it when you quoted me a few pages back. My point about the
CPNN rating was that it is, at least by conventional edgic standards, impossible, because NN (and conversely PP) are by definition extreme, which goes against
the spirit of the CP rating. They seem for all intents and purposes contradictory.
Yet that does seem to be the way that some folks are going. I have no huge problem with this, after all I once rated Eliza as UTR5 for what I still believe are valid reasons, so I'm not exactly in a position to disagree with "creative" ratings. The main reason why I still think N is more appropriate was that he told us his strategy. Because of this I never got the "OMG what is he SAYING" feeling I get when there is a Judd-like rant that always warranted an NN in the past. Instead, it was more like... "oh boy, here comes Randy - what is he going to say to THIS Fang member..." and you watch to see how Randy crafted each insult to the person he was ranting to. It was almost clinical. Oh yes, he was a jerk, but by conventional standards he was not NN. Maybe Randy is so unconventional that nothing else but CPNN (which I don't think has ever been used before) is appropriate. The problem I have with it is that the CP-ness of it just takes that extra N away from my perception. YRMV, of course. |
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getting real |
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Posts: 1367 (11/22/08 12:36 AM) Registered User |
OnlyTheHunter wrote:  What about sledging?
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Kitty Pryde1 |
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Posts: 6545 (11/22/08 12:52 AM) |
Just because it's crafted doesn't make it any less blistering and negative.
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AbbyGirl |
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Posts: 13 (11/22/08 1:39 AM) |
I agree with Craig, Trinity and Redwing. I didn't have to over-think anything to see Sugar as smug, catty and mean. It was like she was part of the popular
group and decided to pick on someone who was already down, it wasn't necessary. Even if it was negative Randy that Sugar was doing it to doesn't make
it right for her to do so. It also didn't make it right for Crystal to act that way at TC, she was being very low class. Corinne was not N because she was
sticking with Randy, some would say she was taking the high road sticking with her alliance even when she knew it was a losing one. How many laughing shots add
up to a N? More than a few I would say, and twelve is way more than a few. I felt bad for Randy because of the edit, not because I am a Randy fan. Randy was
picked on, he lashed out like a cornered animal would. Susie said she felt like Randy was a sad person at TC... that's what I think as well. We were shown
Susie saying that for a reason, to see that Randy was a human being and had feelings like all human beings do. Sugar went too far and she was N no matter what
we think of Randy.
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craig |
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Posts: 14342 (11/22/08 1:49 AM) Registered User |
If Crystal played the idol and cookie tricks on Randy, i could sort of understand and wouldn't mind so much. They've been arch-enemies from day one.
But what did Randy ever do to Sugar that we so bad? So's just being mean and childish for no reason, with her big bad alliance supporting her. All the
smirking shots were OTTN. Don't forget her scene with Bob earlier in the episode, where she laughed at him fruitlessly searching for the idol.
Last Edited By: craig
11/22/08 1:54 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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