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danyul0911 |
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Ummm the two challenges during Rafe's INV were the one where Brandon killed Jamie on cutting the rope and catching a ball launched out of a catapult. Rafe
was not focused on during any of these challenges. The challenge you are talking about is during Episode 2 where Rafe got an MOR anyways. Rafe deserved his
INV.
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fat little fingers |
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An Open Letter to those with an Interesting Spec Idea:
(That's to say, not aimed at only panurge, but to posters in general.) The Seven Deadly Sins theme is a lot of fun and another great example of speculation that belongs in another thread of its own in SucksSpec. That's not to knock it. It's just not premised on Edgic. And the growing practice of posting all spec in Edgic confuses what we're doing here. I notice a number of new posters and lurkers who are confused about what is and isn't Edgic. That said, I know I'm getting nowhere, because posting in Edgic has become such a cosy, warm, and especially guaranteed big audience. There was a time when if someone had an interesting brainstorm, they'd immediately start a new thread and some lively alternate activity, and leave Edgic to Edgic. And many of us would pop in and out of the different threads. That's the whole idea behind naming this forum Survivor Speculation. Your spec idea has the task of standing on its own merits in its own thread. And it may not get much response initially. That's because everyone now looks to this thread for everything! But, let it gather its own momentum or even to die an honest death if it attracts little or no attention. It would have the clarity of its own thought process and it would be responded to throughout the season, since it's not lost on page 96 or 342 of Edgic. See the sense it makes? I don't dislike the alternate ideas expressed here. It's just that they don't belong in this thread. That's what the Spec forum is for. And your ideas will be clearer and have the chance to be responded to over a greater period of time, without being lost in this thread. |
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TheLurkerSpeaks |
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danyul,
Apparently, you are correct. (I just went back to check.) I was going off of memory, and while I was thinking there was an argument over the importance of Rafe's performance in that one challenge, apparently it was not over whether he should be INV or not. That said, Rafe's scene dancing with Lydia after the failed RC is at least as memorable as Yul calling Ozzy Poseidon. ETA The difference, of course, is that Rafe's edit did not stand out through the prior episodes the way Yul's did. |
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getting real |
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TLS said:
Regarding story themes, the editors are never that detailed, mainly because reality rarely fits that neatly. Instead, themes are loosely applied so that the rough edges of reality will still fit. If the theme is good v. evil with temptation a major subtheme, the editors hardly need to line up the seven deadly sins. That said, association with the seven deadly sins is one of the surest ways of establishing some tone. The editors definitely do manipulate tone so the "evil" players' vices are played up in the editing, whichever sin it happens to involve.That editing manipulation is achieved in a number of ways, including the portrayal of key scenes. I think many people this season paid insufficient attention to key scenes which set the tone and were sufficiently manipulated to immediately raise red flags; they certainly jumped out at me: 1. The challenge in the very first episode which was so blatantly commented upon by Probst in favor of teamwork and against selfishness that it placed a hige question mark over Marcus'chances and sumultaneously elevated Matty's. 2. The first tribe swap where the great lengths the editors went to to highlight the conflict betweeen Matty and Ken, combined with the edited disapproval of Kenny's choices, should have alerted everyone that we were being set up for a climax between good, strong Matty v. evil, weak Ken and that Matty was likely to win that battle. 3. The extraordinary negatively-slanted editorializing in Jacquie's episode. I originally thought that this augured badly for Fang and well for Kota; however, it soon became apparent that it was the differentiated edits in that episode that were important. Thus, Ken and Crystal, who supported the decision were cast in a negative light. The opposite held true for those who opposed it (Matty, Sugar). In addition, the fact that Ace's resctions to such a key moment in the game weren't shown should have alerted us that he wasn't part of the long-term picture. These were all key scenes which I feel deserved more attention. It wasn't so much manipulation of individual edits; it was more a manipulation of the overall story being told. Interestingly, there was much wider recognition of the fourth key scene of the season, that of Matty telling Sugar about Kenny's lie - another highly manipulated scene. |
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getting real |
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FLF, I waited to see what other people's perspective might be on your open letter. Since nothing has been forthcoming, I'll set the ball rolling on
what I'm sure is leikely to prove some good discussion.
I went back to your first post in this thread and this is what I found.:
Just to get an idea of what is considered spec and what is acceptable edgic fare, where does, for example, does CL's approach to editing fit in the general scheme of things? |
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Phoenix1269 |
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^^
and i would like to add in a 2 cent question... does the discussion of edited themes (for the season) fit into edgic? just curious. |
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BlakeB717 |
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I think there is way too much weight being put on the theme this season. Just because a player mentions the theme or seems to have ties to it doesn't mean
they win. We've had winners that have no ties to the themes and we've had winners that have. We have had many players that clearly relate to the theme
but don't win. The theme needs to be relayed to the viewers in a confessional somehow. Matty seems to talk about it a lot. Our clear themes are
Eden/Temptation and Good vs. Evil. We have been told these themes. 7 Deadly Sins? Interesting grasp but no dice. We haven't been told about this theme at
all; the editors don't expect the audience to think THAT deep about it. Overthinking will just get edgic into trouble (ie. Amanda's
screenshots in China).
Considering the theme's we've been presented with, there is no winner that related to the theme. Good VS Evil, Good doesn't always win. Did Adam get rewarded? No. He was punished for falling for Eve's trap. Adam was naive. What we need to look at is if the audience believes that person deserved to win. I think Kenny fits this best. As for Kenny being set up for a fall for overconfidence? I agree! The winner has to be taught a lesson somehow if they get cocky. Kenny has grown but he's getting cocky, but if he learns his lesson and corrects it, and wins, that just adds to his story of personal growth. A fall doesn't necessarily mean they are voted out. Last episode Kenny was cocky, and was wrong, and we as the audience were supposed to be happy Matty stayed and that Kenny isn't as perfect as he thought. Kenny already had his fall, now we have to watch and see if he can recover. To the audience, this is Kenny's doubt. Can he recover? I believe that he will, and will win. |
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Warrior |
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Blake...X
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Kitty Pryde1 |
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That's exactly what I've been thinking. This is obviously doubt with Kenny, and it's not like it was added to show specifically how Kenny lost. I
mean, he voted for Matty, there needed to be an explanation. He can't be counted out because of this.
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9RedWing19 |
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As for Kenny being set up for a fall for overconfidence? I agree! The winner has to be taught a lesson somehow if they get cocky. Kenny has grown but he's getting cocky, but if he learns his lesson and corrects it, and wins, that just adds to his story of personal growth. A fall doesn't necessarily mean they are voted out. Last episode Kenny was cocky, and was wrong, and we as the audience were supposed to be happy Matty stayed and that Kenny isn't as perfect as he thought. Kenny already had his fall, now we have to watch and see if he can recover. To the audience, this is Kenny's doubt. Can he recover? I believe that he will, and will win.Agreed here too - I am expecting something from Ken early in tomorrow's episode (confessional / discussion with Bob or Matty) on this. |
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craig |
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To me, the editing screams that Kenny is about to get his cummupance at the hands of Bob and\or Sugar.
Ken was slammed for not picking Bob episode 4. Ken puts down Bob's strategic abiltiies last episode (right before Bob won 2 ICs and tricked Ken with the idol). Ken underestimates Bob. "Ken LIED to Sugar" was emphasized in the recap, and that scene where Matty clues her in that she was tricked about Ace. Sugar will get her revenge, as she usually does with the masterminds this season. Especially now that Ken tried to side with "evil" Corinne against "good" Matty. Also, the Negative Fang Edit ep.1-6 suggests that the ending will be a clusterfuck, that the tribe will produce a winner who is either unstrategic snd outside the main Fang alliance (Matty), or that Probst is dissappointed in (Crystal). Anyway, that's my theory, and I'm sticking to it. Past successful edgic picks have had more than the best numbers and ratings (MOR differential, etc). They had themes or story arcs or foreshadowing on their side. They had doubt about facing the jury (except Earl), while Ken has no doubt. |
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SurvivorFanGP |
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the editing screams that Kenny is about to get his cummupanceI'd say that *is* his doubt. |
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wallduck |
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I don't dislike the alternate ideas expressed here. It's just that they don't belong in this thread. That's what the Spec forum is for. And your ideas will be clearer and have the chance to be responded to over a greater period of time, without being lost in this thread.
Thanks for trying. It's so sad to see edgic drowned in an ocean of bullshit.
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craig |
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The doubt for Parvati or Yul never went back to story arcs that began premerge. Rather the winner was set up nicely at the beginning, and then doubt was cooked
up (Yul returning Jonathan's hat, talk of Amanda being unbeatable). Usually early negative spins (Ken not picking Bob, etc) heralds ultimate failure.
Ken never entered edgic's top 3 until ep.6, had had a brief moment as editing golden boy before his foreshadowed fall. |
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LKMOSCAR |
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Crystal being back in the winner prospects on Warrior's chart <3!
Tomorrow will be fun. Will we count out anyone who get an UTR1? |
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panurge46 |
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fat little fingers wrote: I'm surprised at being censored. Since I don't know any other way to analyse editing, I guess you're showing me the door. I'm really surprised. |
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fat little fingers |
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does the discussion of edited themes (for the season) fit into edgic? Not really, Phoenix. We've always been a pretty easy-going thread, so there's always been room for some fan gushing and some outside the guidelines comments. But Edgic has, for a number of seasons now, been paying for its success and popularity by dominating the Speculation Forum. This has lead to posters wanting to debate their independent ideas within Edgic. Why stand down at the dark end of the street when you can get a ready-made audience over at the party house? Speculation does not have to always be in the context of Edgic. Edgic is what it is: a collection of suppositions, based on the actual edit and outcomes of previous seasons. There's no point in telling how to fix or correct or improve Edgic. We do so every post-season, as we go over what worked, what didn't, and what curve ball we were thrown by the editors. Examining themes, imagery, opening credits are all fun, interesting approaches to spec. Family Final Four is still my favorite thread outside of Edgic. Lady V came up with the concept years ago and KernelQ suggested starting her own thread. That's as it should be. Thanks for trying. It's so sad to see edgic drowned in an ocean of bullshit.Lol, wallduck. We're bullshit too when we're wrong. I'd rather call it non-Edic spec and ask that it go forth and create a thousand points of light (to quote a past President who seems a very very very long time ago, now.) |
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SwineForkbeard |
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My main problem with Kenny so far is the amount of specificity in that conversation he had with his sister. He explained exactly how he would get to the end,
who he would be up against, and that he was the presumptive winner. Now if the final 3 are Kenny, Sugar, and Crystal, it will kill all the suspense. If that
actually happens, do you really think they would just throw it in our faces like that? It looks to me like edgic has gone too far in supporting Kenny to turn
back now, so people are glossing over stuff that might lead in other directions.
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Phoenix1269 |
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FLF
I understand where you are coming from, but respectfully, i disagree. i have always felt the "story" and "theme" - being editing choices - can and do affect the different edits. i won't argue with you, and i'm not asking you to change. I have been unhappy with the trolling and arguing and arrogance also, and yes, i would agree that there has been a lot of "spec" but i always felt that the "spec" stuff has been tied nicely to the edit and related analysis. if you don't want to hear about theme, that's fine... but chances are you won't hear a lot else from me since, as panurge aptly stated, i'm not sure how i would go about analyzing editing otherwise. thanks for your opinion |
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panurge46 |
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Thanks Phoenix
flf wrote: Edgic is what it is: a collection of suppositions, based on the actual edit. I think that my "Saints and Sinners" interpretation is exactly that.
Last Edited By: panurge46
12/10/08 10:27 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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