2/25/09 Ep7 "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham"

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BobbyBrown06		#241	[-]
Posts: 10833 (02/26/09 11:37 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	What did Walt say his dream was about?
Hostile6		#242	[-]
Posts: 976 (02/26/09 11:47 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	BobbyBrown06 wrote: What did Walt say his dream was about? John was on the island wearing a suit, surrounded by people who wanted to hurt him.
Wildcat612		#243	[-]
Posts: 415 (02/27/09 12:01 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Do we know why the Others originally tried to kill the 815 survivors? Why did Ben try to kill Locke when he was at the mass grave (back in season 3, I think)? I see a lot of this series as a power play. Widmore was supposed to be leader of the Others, but was supplanted by Ben. Ben was supplanted by John. Could it be that Ben knew this was coming and so he wants to take John out-of-commission? Maybe he also knew somehow that he'd return by plane and as such, was having his followers build the runway. I'm going to have to give up on trying to understand this show...
scepticA		#244	[-]
Posts: 1502 (02/27/09 12:19 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Why did Ben shoot Locke over the pit of dead bodies? It was the easiest way to find out if Locke was special to the island or not. If Locke died, then he could legitimately tell the Others that Locke was not "the one" or whatever. But if Locke somehow survived, then it meant he really was special to the island. When Ben did see Locke again he wasn't all that shocked ("why --- why I SHOT you!!!") No, he was almost resigned. (Shit -- that guy really is special...) So Ben either got rid of a nuisance or got more information. Easy choice for him... BLAM. Why the others chose to kill some of the 815'rs was probably because of that damned list... who was "good" and who wasn't. Evidently there were a lot of not-goods in the tail section. But remember... by season two the others had pretty much told Jack et al "you stay on your side of the island, we'll stay on ours." The final battle of the dynamited Others was due as much to Ben's "if they fight, kill them" as anything else.
glasscup		#245	[-]
Posts: 75 (02/27/09 1:28 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I dont know if this has been discussed. Is it assume Frank landed the plane safely because he still remembers the 3.15 coordinates. right?
twisted1982		#246	[-]
Posts: 177 (02/27/09 2:49 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I just wanted to say that this episode showcased Terry O'Quinn's superior acting. This should be his next Emmy episode submission. Great epsiode.
sir debb eaton hogg		#247	[-]
Posts: 397 (02/27/09 8:35 AM) I need a life Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Sceptia, it sounds a lot like the old witch trials the way you describe it. If the person drowns, she's not a witch. Also agree that O'Quinn is a great actor. And any scene with he and Emerson is always electrifying.
WiscBadger95		#248	[-]
Posts: 13295 (02/27/09 9:15 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	glasscup wrote: I dont know if this has been discussed. Is it assume Frank landed the plane safely because he still remembers the 3.15 coordinates. right? The coordinates would be different now, per what Faraday said in "The Lie" (5x02), every time the Island moves, the bearing to leave/approach the Island changes ... JULIET: I think we should take the Zodiac, head to a shipping lane. FARADAY: No. No, no, no. We can't just sail out on any course. For us to leave, I need to calculate a new bearing, and, uh, to do that... [Faraday extracts a geared brass apparatus from his backpack.] FARADAY: ...I need to determine where we are now... in time.
Cheyenie		#249	[-]
Posts: 914 (02/27/09 10:26 AM) MESS member Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Hostile6 wrote: Cheyenie wrote: I think Locke tried to kill himself because Richard told him he would have to die in order for the O6 to come back. Locke tried talking to them and they wouldn't come back. He might have figured the sooner he died the sooner everyone would get back to the island. He was told his dying was a sacrifice so maybe he thought by killing himself he was making a sacrifice for the island. I don't believe that Ben knew Locke would come back to life on the island. He saw his chance to get back and took it. He may have thought if Locke died he might get to be the leader again. Remember Michael couldn't die until the island was done with him. Maybe Ben figured if he could actually kill Locke then the island might be done with him and resume his place as leader. Btw, I think Ben and Widmore are both using Locke. I suspect Widmore had something to do with Sayid being on the plane. He told Locke he would do everything in his power to get everyone back to the island. I'm sure he was aware of what Locke was doing and took mattes into his own hands to get Sayid there. Also Ceasar and that chick are probably connected to Widmore. He knew about Eloise so he may have put some of his own people on the plane. Either way they don't seem like normal passengers to me. do you really think Locke was killing himself because he knew he had to die? He seemed to want to do it because he finally saw himself as everyone else does. He was crying because he thought himself a failure. He was depressed and unhappy. His only real world connection was dead too... There was nothing altruistic about killing himself in that moment. At least none that I saw... I agree that he thought he was a failure. I think he thought that dying was the only way to get them back. He wasn't capable of getting them back any other way. I'm not sure he would have tried killing himself if Richard and Christian hadn't told him he had to die. His note to Jack said I wish you would have believed me. Locke was thinking about them getting back to the island right before his attempted suicide. To me, his attempt at suicide was a combination of despair and wanting to get them back to the island. I also think Locke's conversation with Abaddon may have affected his decision. ABADDON: Mr. Widmore told me Richard Alpert said that you were going to die. So you tell me, John. Is that inevitable, or is it a choice? LOCKE: What, you think I wanna die? How is that... how could you possibly think that's a choice?
PoChop		#250	[-]
Posts: 1884 (02/27/09 11:10 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	The whole point of Dharma was supposedly an effort to change the equation constants or the "numbers" and change or delay the inevitable course of human history that was predicted by the Valenzetti equations to end in war, calamity, and the end of human civilization. Wasn't it? Or the island was intended to be a place of refuge for a small remnant of human society, i.e. the Dharma folks but they apparently clashed with the Other folks. I think that this stuff came out of one of the summer web things so I don't know how closely it is linked to the actual canon of the show. So I think when Widmore is talking about war it's related to something bad that must and will happen to the outside world. I figure Dharma was trying to harness the time travel capabilities of the island to change strategic elements of history but finally realized that it could not be done because the universe is self correcting and whatever happened will eventually happen anyway in some manner. All the crazy stuff happening on the show might be the result of that effort, particularly if someone went into the far future and tried to alter things in the present to change the future. Anyway, I'm hoping for a final scene where Marvin "Baltar" Candle is the last human in the future on a destroyed planet inhabited by Cylon centurions.
cindidindi76		#251	[-]
Posts: 15768 (02/27/09 11:32 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Why the others chose to kill some of the 815'rs was probably because of that damned list... who was "good" and who wasn't. Evidently there were a lot of not-goods in the tail section. Wait, what? The Others weren't randomly killing the "bad" people, they were just taking the good. The tailies killed a couple others, because they had no idea wtf was going on, just that people were getting snatched. If the others really wanted to, they could have just stormed the tailies beach and taken who they wanted and killed everyone else.
The SovereignOne		#252	[-]
Posts: 1446 (02/27/09 11:58 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Just re-watched and I unfortunatley think I found the first semi-major logistical flaw in the time travel plot. Matthew helps Mr. Whidmore get people where they need to get to. Matthew was the orderly in the Hospital who persuaded Locke to go to Sydney. How would Whidmore know that Locke needed to get to the island? How woud Whidmore know the plane would crash on the island? Now yes, young Whidmore met Locke but Charles would not have that memory until present day - I am under the understanding that it is not a memory until both parties have had the experience. Am I over thinking things or missing something here? Outside of that, Terry O' Quinn really did do excellant work in this episode. The Locke scenes with Walt and Kate especially stood out to me as just tremendous. Also nice to know that Walt will play some part in the overall story as the series slowly begins to round the corner. Everything to say on Whidmore v. Linus has pretty much been said. Btw, Christian saying "Elouise Hawking" during the "Previously On" definitley sounded like an add-in. Am fairly positive he never said her name in the actual episode. Overall, this answered a lot - more then one episode usually does. It was also just extremley well acted and felt important from start to finish. A great success for sure.
pussycow		#253	[-]
Posts: 4415 (02/27/09 12:01 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Widmore would have the memory as soon as it happened, in the 50s.
The SovereignOne		#254	[-]
Posts: 1447 (02/27/09 12:13 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	pussycow wrote: Widmore would have the memory as soon as it happened, in the 50s. Possibly. And I know we have done this to death by now, but did Danielle just go insane and that is why she didn't remember Jin when she saw him in present-day OR do both people have to experience the memory before it truly becomes a memory? Personally, I think the latter makes more sense. Last Edited By: The SovereignOne 02/27/09 12:23 PM. Edited 1 times.
sir debb eaton hogg		#255	[-]
Posts: 401 (02/27/09 12:56 PM) I need a life Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Sovereign, I agree with you about Christian. I didn't remember hearing him say Eloise's name either. Nice editing Lost honchos.
Cheyenie		#256	[-]
Posts: 917 (02/27/09 1:21 PM) MESS member Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I went back and watched the end of "This Place is Death." Christian does tell Locke about Eloise Hawking. Here's a link to the episode transcript from Lostpedia. http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/This_Place_Is_Death_transcript eta: I agree with the other posters that Locke looked really good in his suit on Island. It's weird but he had a peacefullness about him in those scenes.
Ichigo Kurosaki		#257	[-]
Posts: 2 (02/27/09 2:44 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Ben is clearly NOT one of "The Chosen" because he went down with the plane. I'd bet that everything Ben has said about his background is crap. What is true agenda is is going to be the key to the whole series. Him and Widmore.
stacy1201		#258	[-]
Posts: 292 (02/27/09 2:53 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	The SovereignOne wrote: pussycow wrote: Widmore would have the memory as soon as it happened, in the 50s. Possibly. And I know we have done this to death by now, but did Danielle just go insane and that is why she didn't remember Jin when she saw him in present-day OR do both people have to experience the memory before it truly becomes a memory? Personally, I think the latter makes more sense. Yes, Widmore had the memory since it happened...Your other question about how widmore would know the plane would take Locke to the island...I'm assuming Eloise told him, just like she knew about 316... Maybe Widmore and/or Ben and/or Eloise were somehow involved in the psychic buying a ticket for Claire as well. Danielle should've remembered Jin. I know she didn't say anything about it, but as ridiculous as it sounds, I can't think of any interaction between the two of them other than the scene in 1988.... The first time she went to their camp, she was warning them about The Others coming to get Aaron, and Jin was either on the raft, or about to be on the raft (Did they meet then? I need to rewatch....). She also came to the camp at the end of season 3 when she and Jack did their explosives demonstration (She was on the other side of the field and probably wouldn't have picked him out from the crowd). Then when everyone walked to the radio tower, Jin stayed behind....I'm pretty sure the two of them didn't have any kind of conversation, and I can't think of a timd Rousseau would've seen Jin other than in a big crowd of people. I would've imagined she would've recognized him as he was the last person she talked to in 16 years (And the fact that he disappeared before her eyes and made her group sick (she thought), made for a pretty memorable meeting at that...). On top of that, what would she have said if she did recognize him? They all already thought she was insane. So basically, I think she had the memory, she just didn't notice him, or she did and didn't say anything about it.
stacy1201		#259	[-]
Posts: 293 (02/27/09 2:56 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	stacy1201 wrote: The SovereignOne wrote: pussycow wrote: Widmore would have the memory as soon as it happened, in the 50s. Possibly. And I know we have done this to death by now, but did Danielle just go insane and that is why she didn't remember Jin when she saw him in present-day OR do both people have to experience the memory before it truly becomes a memory? Personally, I think the latter makes more sense. Yes, Widmore had the memory since it happened...Your other question about how widmore would know the plane would take Locke to the island...I'm assuming Eloise told him, just like she knew about 316... Maybe Widmore and/or Ben and/or Eloise were somehow involved in the psychic buying a ticket for Claire as well. Danielle should've remembered Jin. I know she didn't say anything about it, but as ridiculous as it sounds, I can't think of any interaction between the two of them other than the scene in 1988.... The first time she went to their camp, she was warning them about The Others coming to get Aaron, and Jin was either on the raft, or about to be on the raft (Did they meet then? I need to rewatch....). She also came to the camp at the end of season 3 when she and Jack did their explosives demonstration (She was on the other side of the field and probably wouldn't have picked him out from the crowd). Then when everyone walked to the radio tower, Jin stayed behind....I'm pretty sure the two of them didn't have any kind of conversation, and I can't think of a timd Rousseau would've seen Jin other than in a big crowd of people. I would've imagined she would've recognized him as he was the last person she talked to in 16 years (And the fact that he disappeared before her eyes and made her group sick (she thought), made for a pretty memorable meeting at that...). On top of that, what would she have said if she did recognize him? They all already thought she was insane. So basically, I think she had the memory, she just didn't notice him, or she did and didn't say anything about it. Although, I could be completely wrong...Maybe the two of them carried on an entire conversation in previous episodes , and Rousseau had no clue...
cindidindi76		#260	[-]
Posts: 15769 (02/27/09 3:01 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	They haven't had any conversations in previous episodes, that much I'm pretty sure of. Everything to say on Whidmore v. Linus has pretty much been said. Btw, Christian saying "Elouise Hawking" during the "Previously On" definitley sounded like an add-in. Am fairly positive he never said her name in the actual episode. Yeah, I still had it on my DVR and went and checked because it sounded so "added-in", and it was in the original convo.

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2/25/09 Ep7 "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham"