Russell = CP
A person can be evil and complex. The two are not mutually exclusive. Not that it matters. People see what they want to see. It's why edgic has failed 3 of the past 4 seasons.

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SurvivorGuy24 |
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Judd = OTT
Russell = CP A person can be evil and complex. The two are not mutually exclusive. Not that it matters. People see what they want to see. It's why edgic has failed 3 of the past 4 seasons. |
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Riliss |
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SurvivorGuy24 wrote:Well said my friend. |
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BlakeB717 |
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Edgic failure has nothing to do with giving an evil person an OTT instead of a CP. Russell's visibility is still ridiculously high and his
negativity is ridiculously strong. He's eliminated, by edgic standards, just the same whether he's CPNN5 or OTTNN5.
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Riliss |
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Sorry bro, but the principle behind the incorrect ratings of Russell applies to the failures of edgic as a whole.
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Kitty Pryde1 |
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I agree. Too many people just throw OTTNs at the problem. Look at last season. Only two CPNs compared to Gabon, which had tons. The second someone is
labelled as a villain, it's like certain people can no longer view them as complex (Oo). It'slike with Randy in his boot episode. Were his ACTIONS
assholish? Yes, they certainly were. But did he explain those actions to us in confessionals? YES. And worst of all is the fact that because plenty of
people hate the PP/NN tone ratings, he got an OTTN for that episode, which was total bullshit.
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Werwanderflugen |
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Some really great ratings posts the past few pages, everyone! I haven't had internet for a couple of days, so there's a lot to soak in.
Two questions: 1) When are ratings due, and 2) Can someone PM a link to the voting site? Many thanks! :) |
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menelaus |
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Here we go:
Foa Foa: Ashley-MORN4: She was shown as stupid and weak, and we were supposed to want her gone over Marissa. Other than that, we got no insight from here, she was just there. Ben-OTTN3: We didn't hear anything deep about him. All we know is that he's cocky and mean. Besty-CPP3: Pretty everyone else has explained this, there isn't any controversy here. Elizabeth-MOR2: I felt that we got enough insight from her at the beginning to justify the CP+UTR=MOR. She is self aware about first impressions based on race, and she wants to reinforce the positive aspects while defying the negative ones. Jaison-UTRP2: Positive for the RC, otherwise very UTR. We learned a bit about him, which was nice. Marissa-CPP4: Not much here to say. Mick-MORP3: Very much a CP+UTR=MOR edit for Mick. Some insight at the start about his position as leader as well as his job, goes under the radar as Evil Russell takes over. I also felt P for the part about him making smart picks for the RC. Mike-OTTN3: All of his comments were aggressive and shot down, leading to the N, and he was shown only as throwing others under the bus to protect himself. We didn't learn anything about him other than wanting to stay. Natalie-UTR1: She was there a lot. Evil Russell-CPNN5: We got insight from him, but the guy is an idiot and evil. He isn't going to win, it's that simple. Galu: Brett-UTR1: He had a confessional. Dave-UTR2: Very weak 2, very UTR. Erik-UTRP2: Positivity during the challenges, especially the first one, otherwise not there. John-MORN3: Got a bit of insight from him about thinking before acting, but was otherwise blasted with negative SPV. His strong performance at the IC was de-emphasized. Kelly-INV1: Who? Laura-INV1: There were girls other than Shambo on Galu? Monica-UTR1: She had a confessional. Good Russell-CPP4: We got insight from him about his position being chosen as leader, and he got generally positive SPV and manipulation. Shambo-CPM4: Got insight from her about a variety of things, and she got positive SPV from Brett and positivity during the challenge. However, she was also shown as isolating herself from her tribe and what she said about Russell within 1 scene contradicted itself (he is a good leader, then he is a bad leader). Very Marquesas Kathy in her edit. Yasmin-INV1: She plays in heels! Overall, I would say that the only people who look good as winners are Betsy, Mick, Good Russell, and Shambo. Elizabeth, Jaison, Erik, and John all feel like they got enough in the first episode that their edits could be turned into winner edits, but that doesn't look like that's where they are headed right now. However, something important to take into account is that each winner for the past while (since EI or earlier...) has had a scene focused on him/her in the first episode (Aras and the yoga, Todd and JR, Parvati the Flirt, Bob the Builder, etc). These were scenes that were not necessarily related to the immediate story line, but they did give us something about the winner. In this premiere, I counted this sort of scene for Mick (watching Marissa and Russell, although this one is a bit weaker than they have been), Shambo (sitting on the beach alone), Betsy (talking to Natalie or talking to Russell, I would go for the latter because Russell also gets a confessional about Betsy), John (the shelter scene), and possibly good Russell (the whole leadership thing). Evil Russell and Ben also got scenes, but their edits seem to have no potential as winner edits (evil Russell's massive visibility and Ben's relationship with Marissa not being explained at all). Jaison sort of had this with the socks, but that was more about evil Russell. |
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TheGup |
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Some notes from the episode...
If John was attempting to fly under the radar and pretend to be a model/surfer boy, he certainly failed at that. Between his extensive planning and large vocabulary, he was shown as the "thinker", which directly contradicts his pre-season strategy. Shambo, a woman who confessed not to be a book lover, said she didn't appreciate his "big talk". The comments already made about this being a very racially recognizable season are true: there are many observations that are racially questionable, and little things like Natalie's dismayed reaction at Jaison being chosen to swim are shown to reinforce it. I would also disagree with giving Natalie and INV rating. She was shown in a strategy conversation with Betsy, and although it was Betsy who steered the conversation, Natalie was shown as a thinker. Natalie also immediately agreed to an alliance with Russell, leading me to think she is more intelligent than you'd think. She is also shown as getting in front of Russell in the challenge to pull the box, taking a leading role. The "Laura is more invisible than Kelly" bandwagon is ridiculous. Laura led the tribe during the puzzle part of the challenge, and was shown several times reacting vocally to Russell/John. Kelly had literally zero opportunity to speak. While both were undoubtedly INV, I don't believe Laura was to the same degree that Kelly was. Just because she has dreads doesn't mean she was less INV. Mick is another interesting character. He is shown voting and looking around. He is shown sitting back and watching Ben take charge. He is shown during Russell's New Orleans story to look disinterested and unsympathetic. He is shown sitting up and looking around when Russell starts messing around with the canteens. He is shown looking at Marisa and Russell's strategy session. He is shown watching Russell campaign against Marisa. I think this shows that Mick and Betsy (who already has a well-documented case of opposing Russell), are going to be the combined forces which bring down Mick. That, or Betsy will be the next Foa Foa to leave, and Mick will avenge his former alliance partners, Betsy and Marisa. The second option is the option I believe to be more likely. I believe that Mike is being set up as the James Miller of this season. He seems to be the person who is comically incorrect. He said Ashley was the weakest, and began to campaign for her to leave. He insisted that he was NOT the weakest, with music playing that very much contradicted that. He informed the tribe that the other tribe was lucky, and that this was just "the first quarter in a seven game series". I think this implies Foa Foa goes on to lose many more challenges. If there were ever going to be a winner that was UTR1 or INV during the first episode again (following Tina's victory in Australia), this would be the season. We have one tribe that is an utter gongshow, with a massive character in Russell, large characters in Ben, Marissa, and Betsy, going to Tribal Council. How could Galu stand a chance to get an edit? I believe that an INV or UTR rating in this episode does not automatically eliminate our winner. While it does undoubtedly harm the chances of anyone, I don't think that it should be eliminated with these factors in mind. Obviously I'm brand new at this (first post!), so I'm not sure if these observations are helpful. But I do believe edgic is the most interesting part of Sucks by leaps and bounds. |
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cindidindi76 |
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SurvivorGuy24 wrote: And a person can say "Hey look at me I'm a douchebag but it's my strategy!!!!" and still be OTT. |
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nordicsurvivor |
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Posts: 393 (09/20/09 03:12 PM) Registered User |
While the debate about Russell goes on, I wanna point out that whether he had enough depth to be CP or not, he probably would've had more if he was to win
this game. As far as I'm aware, Edgic's main purpose is to find out the winner and Russell certainly isn't gonna win after that episode. Even
though he explained his actions quite clearly we did see awfully lot of him throwing nasty comments away and there were so many things that the editors
would've left out or downplayed if he was to win. Right now the editing builds an over-the-top character whether he was OTT or CP this episode, and the
climax of this season will be his downfall. The winner will then most likely be his nemesis or the reason of his fall, which I think will be either Betsy, Mick
or Jaison.
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Warrior |
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Phoenix1269 wrote: In the past they usually went 12 min or so before the first comemercial. Your right, this year there was an early one. In the past when we were looking at the players with confessionals before the second commercial there were around 20 to 24. This year only 12. This season we should be looking at thoses player that recieved a confessional before the third comnmercial break. IMHO |
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cantthinkofaname |
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Did anyone else notice Shambo's negative SPV for Russell S?
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SurvivorGuy24 |
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cindidindi76 wrote: Unless they explain WHY it's their strategy to be a douchebag, in which case they're CP again. Russell probably isn't going to win. That's not the point. The point is that he's not getting the cartoonish Judd villain edit. At least not yet. Right now he's Brian Heidik taken to the nth degree. "If I can control how they feel, I can control how they think." If that's not complex I don't know what is. |
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9RedWing19 |
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SurvivorGuy24 wrote:If you think Russell is like Brian H, you really, really, really need to go back and watch Thailand again. Heidik was very clinical, in what some consider a sociopathic fashion. His signature statement was that it was just a business trip. Spouting cliches like the one you quoted does not make a complex edit - in fact, it makes the person more cartoonish, and hence OTT. We've had 3 male CPN winners - Hatch, Heidik, and Todd - can you think of one episode any of the 3 of these contestants had that resembled Russell's Ep 1 edit? |
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menelaus |
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None of the three were edited negatively in the very first episode, iirc. The negativity got added in later to create doubt.
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SurvivorGuy24 |
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Spouting cliches like the one you quoted does not make a complex edit - in fact, it makes the person more cartoonish, and hence OTT. Uh...not really. He basically explained his entire strategy to the viewer in one sentence - create an unpleasant environment for his tribemates, thus breaking them down mentally and allowing him to manipulate them. If he had said "I like to be evil! It's fun!" That would be cartoonish. If anything it's a possible winner's quote. Also in his opening intro confessional (which many winners get, by the way) he says something like: "I plan on making it as miserable as possible, to get what I want." There's an awful lot of material the editors could have left on the cutting room floor if they wanted Russell to be seen as a cartoonish, over-the-top villain.
Last Edited By: SurvivorGuy24
09/20/09 04:08 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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9RedWing19 |
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SurvivorGuy24 wrote:I think there is a stronger argument that there's an awful lot of material the editors could have left on the cutting room floor if they wanted Russell to be seen as a Hatch/Heidik type villain and not the second coming of Snidely Whiplash. |
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Niczez.votefortheworst |
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The CP vs OTT question for Evil Russell is really intriguing. I think both sides are making valid arguments, even if I come down on the CP side. I think two
things are making it unclear . . .
1. Russell has a strategy but it's kind of a stupid one. It seems unlikely to me that a weak, confused tribe is going to rally behind a leader who isn't doing anything to solve these problems. It seems more likely that a tribe abused in the way Russell plans will just self-destruct and there won't be much left of it to go into the merge. Is someone strategic if their strategy amounts to a pile of crap? 2. I don't think there's ever been an edit like his, winner or not. I can't think of someone coming off so evil and aggressive in the first episode and not clearly been an early boot. I have a lot better recall of some seasons than others, so if there is an instance of a similar edit, I would love to hear about it. |
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Venatrix Avia |
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May I play? I've lurked since Fiji, but I think I'd like to try participating this time around. Lurking isn't at all the same as trying it oneself,
so please let me know if you think that any of these ratings demonstrate a drastic misunderstanding of the system. I have included explanations, so you can see
my thought processes.
Sadly, my work schedule doesn't really allow me to sit down with the episode until the weekend, so you can expect me to chime in late most weeks. FOA FOA Ashley - MORN4 Her words at TC were selected to make her look like an inarticulate nitwit ("But I do CARDIO!"), and her reaction to Russel's Katrina story was deliberately juxtaposed with the more skeptical Marisa's in order to make her look naive and foolish. She gets the "dumb player" N, rather than the N of malice, but it's a negative edit all the same. Ben - OTTN3 He's just an over-the-top jerk, with no reason given for him being that way. We never hear an explanation for his antipathy towards Marisa, or for that matter, get his side of the story on anything much save for his own egotism. He's just the cartoonish thug follower to a cartoonish villain, the Crabbe-n-Goyle to Russell's Draco Malfoy. Betsy - CPP3 She's edited as the one person who can see through the villain Russell, an important narrative role. This was definitely a hero edit, although we've yet to learn whether she's to be a tragic victim-hero or a victorious one. There was nothing cartoonish or over-the-top positive about her portrayal, though. We got insight into her skeptical nature, and the filming of her scene with Natalie was carefully (and beautifully) shot in such a way as to encourage the viewer to see things through her eyes. Complexity doesn't always come solely through dialogue. Sometimes it can also come from the camera, and I think that scene was a perfect example. Jaison - MOR2 I considered a P for Jaison, but on reflection, I think that he's just a really positive person, and that the editing itself was more or less neutral. Liz - UTRN2 She was absolutely right about the racial stereotyping, but by emphasizing Mick's lack of racial stereotyping with Jaison, and by including her brusque "The name's LIZ!" in response to being nominated as leader, the editors conspired to make her seem both oversensitive and churlish. It's a weak N, but it's definitely there, and it's definitely manipulation. I like her, personally, and I really don't like where I suspect her edit is heading. Marisa - MORP4 She's the brave ingenue who tries to stand up for Truth And Justice, and who therefore falls victim to the Big Bad villain. That's an automatic P right there. I felt that her depiction was neither complex enough for CP nor simplistic enough for OTT. Mick - MORP3 He does well as the leader in the first challenge. By having Mike, Russell, and Jaison all comment on his correct choice of Jaison as the swimmer, the editing strongly pushes the idea that Mick is unusually free from racial prejudice. That's a huge P, right there. He is also artificially inserted into scenes to make him appear as if he's observing them...and therefore to forestall the interpretation that perhaps Mick has no idea what the hell is happening on his tribe. I see a shitload of manipulation and craft going on here, and all of it is designed to make Mick look good. That's a positive edit. It's still a bland positive, though: there's no particular insight or introspection, or anything else that would warrant a CP. Mike - MORM3 His insensitive language ("Afro-Americans?") and willingness to put the target on a young women to save his own hide are both negatives, but we are also encouraged to sympathize with his desire to stay in the game and his fear of being perceived as weak just because he's "the old guy." I thought it was a mixed edit, but a comedic M, rather than a complex M. Natalie - INV1 She's the "dumber" blonde in Russell's dumb-ass girl alliance, but she's not given a word to say about it. Nor about anything else, for that matter. She does get one line in a scene with Betsy, however, and we also see her agreeing to an alliance with Russell. Is that enough to save her from invisibility? I'm torn, but given that her tribe attended TC and we still got nary a peep out of her, I gave her an INV. I would also accept an UTR rating for her, though. Russell H - OTTNN5 This was as cartoonish and one-sided a depiction as one could ever hope to see on a television show. I'm honestly surprised that there weren't subtitles flashing underneath every time he came on screen, urging the audience to boo and hiss. Yes, he talked about strategy. But there was absolutely no complexity there. The editing did not emphasize him as a strategic mind or even as all that much of a thinker, really; it presented him as a borderline psychopath, a completely over-the-top evil villain. If this isn't an OTT edit, then I'm having some problems imagining what an OTT edit would look like. That said, however, I'm not altogether convinced that if Russel won the game, they wouldn't edit him like this. Despite Edgic rules, I wouldn't be all that surprised if they decided it was time for a super-villain win. GALU Brett - UTR1 He gets an early confessional and is a part of the shelter-building clusterfuck. It saves him from an INV, but there's no tone. Dave - UTR2 His negative words about John were supported by the editing. There are certainly strong hints that Dave is slated for a criticizing, carping, negative role on his tribe in the future, but for now, his tone is still neutral. Erik - UTRP1 He's edited as one of the heroes of the RC, and he shuts down OTTN Ben's smack-talk at the IC. All of his negative words about John are strongly supported by the editing. I don't care much for the guy myself, but I think that the editors mean for us to admire him and to remember him. John - OTTN3 The editing makes him out to be a one-dimensional, cartoon fool. He's comic relief. Even though he doesn't get that much screen time, this is still a totally over-the-top buffoon edit. Kelly - INV1 Ignored. Laura - INV1 Did she even make it into any of the camera shots? Monica - UTR1 Has a fluff confessional early on. Accepted the flint for her tribe. Forgettable, but not quite invisible. Russel S. - CPP4 The decent man who might not be a natural-born leader, but who is learning how to be one. We gain insight into his own ambivalence over the role. Shambo gives him credit for stepping up, and I think that her opinion is one we're meant to respect. His kind, supportive, motivational words for his tribe come across as sincere and genuine -- and they are included twice. Once would have been sufficient to convey this aspect of his character; twice lends emphasis, and shows the editors' hands. I see manipulation here, designed to push him as a positive, if complex, character. Shannon - CPP4 At every stage of the game, the editing supports her statements. When she says that she's not a puzzler, we're meant both to trust her judgement and to be happy for her when she then exceeds expectations. When she says that Russell is improving as a leader, we're meant to trust her opinion. When she complains that John is all talk and no action, the editing backs her up. When she expresses frustration about Russell's leadership, we're meant to sympathize. When she abstains from the bathing session in the ocean, we're meant to understand why, but also to worry that she's making a big mistake. There's no question in my mind that this is a positive edit, and I think that we get enough insight and introspection from her to warrant a CP. Yasmin - INV1 She is shown as an asset in the first challenge, but a liability in the second. It's not enough to save her from INV. |
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wallduck |
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... if they wanted Russell to be seen as a Hatch/Heidik type villain and not the second coming of Snidely Whiplash.Actually, Dick Dastardly was the second coming of Snidely Whiplash ... who was the reincarnation of Dudley Nightshade. All three got edits more complex than Russell's. |
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