S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)

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scepticA		#1981	[-]
Posts: 1733 (10/28/09 11:58 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	"There are always exceptions to every rule. " That's how you can ignore the history of the show and allows you to pick anyone you want as a winner. In addition, you really can't include Tina's INV because it was a specific tactic used by MB to have S2 different from S1. It was a studious, designed and purposeful ignoring of her - precisely because she was critical to the end game. Oher INVs are merely "invisible = unimportant." There is a difference between no winner having a UTR1 and INV in their first 2 eps, and someone having a UTR1 or an INV. It might not be crazy to imagine a winner with both, but the only way to do it is to claim that this is an exception to a rule. Which, as I pointed out, doesn't have much to do with edgic.
SurvivorGuy24		#1982	[-]
Posts: 991 (10/28/09 12:03 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	4. Mick, who deceptively seems like the winner, is just too apathetic. He hasn't really been making any moves, hasn't ever really discussed strategy, goes along with whatever Russel tells him to do, and is dull. Also, the public thinks he's dull. That's a pretty thin argument: "Mick is boring, therefore edgic doesn't apply this season and anyone can win! Huzzah!" Bob was boring. Danni was boring. Amber was boring. Lots of winners have been boring. And even if that was valid justification for Mick not being the winner, it still wouldn't make Natalie a viable pick. Last Edited By: SurvivorGuy24 10/28/09 12:11 PM. Edited 1 times.
Oowatanite		#1983	[-]
Posts: 9125 (10/28/09 1:04 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Amber's win was *AWESOME. Just ask KQ, the founder* of Edgic.
Archibald C		#1984	[-]
Posts: 113 (10/28/09 1:16 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Dull was maybe not the right word, what I was trying to say is that Mick doesn't have a reason to win. Every winner has had a reason for why they win that is apparent in the first half of the game. Even the "boring" winners have had them. Vecepia's drama free, under the radar, alliance hopping strategy was very clear from the beginning. Amber's good cop to Rob's bad cop as well. Danni's defying the odds, and making the right moves at the right times. Bob's extreme likability was apparent in every episode, even when he wasn't talking people were talking about how much they liked him. With Mick we haven't seen any reason for why he should win. He's not shown as having any strategy, we don't know what his relationships with the other players are, and he's not even being portrayed as a great physical player. Even though he's talking a lot, he has a thinner edit than Natalie, who so far has three reasons for why she could win: good cop to Russel's bad cop, being underestimated and then proving everyone wrong, and she is clearly liked by the members of her tribe, even the ones who don't seem to like anyone else (Ben). I'm not saying that if you eliminate Mick, that automatically means Natalie wins, but with the slim pickings of possible winners I think she should be reconsidered. If Amber can win with the edit she was given, I think Natalie certainly could too.
unduli clone		#1985	[-]
Posts: 7641 (10/28/09 1:59 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	OnlyTheHunter wrote: Why would anyone officially eliminate Jaison or Shambo? Even if they aren't your number one choice, read the guidelines and tell me why either would be eliminated? I don't get it. I would eliminate Shambo for the reason that she's received more pre-merge tone than many winners combined received. Post-ASS winners with pre-merge tone: Chris - 1 (N) Tom - 6 (all P) Danni - 1 (P) Aras - 2 (1 P, 1 N) Yul - 3 (all P) Earl - 4 (all P) Todd - 0 Parvati - 1 (N) Bob - 3 (all P) J.T. - 3 (all P) If you look at the redone chart for PI, Sandra would make the only winner besides Aras and Rich to receive both a P and an N pre-merge; otherwise, it's just those two, in 19 seasons, and of all of them, they only received ONE tone rating that deviated from their norm (the P for Rich, and the N for Sandra). Now, look at the non-winners: Crystal, Susie, Randy, Amanda (S16), Cirie (S16), Cassandra, Yau-Man (S14), Ozzy (CI), Jonathan (CI), Terry, Cirie (S12), Ian (same amount of tone as Tom, but received one contrary N), Katie, Twila, Ami, Eliza, Leann, Sarge, RobM (ASS), JennaL (ASS), Rupert (ASS), Tom (ASS), Alicia (ASS), etc, etc, etc. These are the people who received a lot of pre-merge tone or a lot of contrary tone. It's just like the Mixed rating. Since it's been in play, a winner has had an M episode only once in their season, and only four winners have had it (three of the four were very late into the game).On the other hand, non-winners have received this rating many times (for M characters, think Dreamz, Cirie (Micro), or Peih-Gee). The editors WANT us to see the winner in a specific light. This is why the winner is so heavily manipulated and edited - it's because the audience is being told how to react to the winner. Giving an ambivalent edit that shifts from P to N, or is up to the audience to decide how they want it (M) is not what makes sense when editing a show like Survivor, if history can tell us anything. Shambo's move from P -> N -> P -> N -> P, and possibly to P again, is indicative of nothing more than an ambiguous and distracting edit of a character, not of a winner. Last Edited By: unduli clone 10/29/09 7:56 AM. Edited 1 times.
Werwanderflugen		#1986	[-]
Posts: 266 (10/28/09 1:59 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	With Mick we haven't seen any reason for why he should win. He's not shown as having any strategy, we don't know what his relationships with the other players are, and he's not even being portrayed as a great physical player. Even though he's talking a lot, he has a thinner edit than Natalie... Your facts are wrong with Mick. In Episode One, in his first confessional, he tells us "I do have leadership qualities." After the challenge, Marisa praised his choices as the reason for their victory. He later says "Ben's an interesting chap… He shows up to camp and the guy's like "All eyes to me!" The leadership thing is difficult and I'm still trying to sort out exactly how to run it. If he wants to step up and take control of things, you know what? Have at it my friend because he will paint his own target." Not only does he express slight complexity over his situation, but he strategically defers to Ben. Also very interestingly, he voted for Ashley, but this fact was completely ignored in this and later episodes. I think the editors could have make him look very bad, but they chose not to. Episode three is where much of his complexity and end-game connections appear. About Shambo, he says "I mean…we'd like to adopt her. She's just great energy, she's just good people." He was the first Foa Foan to comment on Shambo, whose flipping to Foa Foa at the merge now seems inevitable. Later, he discusses strategy with Russell, who convinces him that Ashley is the best target at the moment. They make a deal to trust each other, and Mick even recognizes that it could be his downfall. At the time, it sure looked like a bad idea to trust Russell, but with the merge approaching, it's obvious now that FF will probably have to stick together. Then, in Episode four after the RC, he says "It's so demoralizing. I'm so tired of losing to these guys," suggesting his role in a possible Foa Foa comeback later in the game. In the most recent episode's TC, it seemed obvious to me that the editors are trying to set up a Galu/Erik vs. Foa Foa/Mick storyline; I think his obvious placement as one of the faces of the underdog tribe bodes very well for him. That's all I have time for now, but to say that Mick hasn't been shown as strategic or having relationships with other players is clearly false. Last Edited By: Werwanderflugen 10/28/09 2:02 PM. Edited 2 times.
chapera rocks		#1987	[-]
Posts: 11862 (10/28/09 2:08 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts
Archibald C		#1988	[-]
Posts: 114 (10/28/09 2:38 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	None of that stuff is saying anything about him, though. So he's tired of losing, likes Shambo, and made an alliance with Russel, so has the rest of Foa Foa. All of these things are paper thin, and he's never said anything more than what we're seeing him do. He almost never adds any insight to what he's doing, or how it's affecting his game. He's a very superficial character, so I can't count Russel making an alliance with him, or Marissa (in the episode she gets voted off) saying he was a good leader for the 3 days she was there, as any winner evidence. They don't seem to hold any weight in the game.
Katy Carney		#1989	[-]
Posts: 9197 (10/28/09 4:58 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I didn't even know there was such a thing as UTR3.
astroline		#1990	[-]
Posts: 2697 (10/28/09 5:15 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Katy Carney wrote: I didn't even know there was such a thing as UTR3. That's cos you're too busy making cool ranking threads. <3 Nick was UTR3 in Exile Island and Parvati was UTRP3 in Cooks. Dunno if there are any others, but it's possible. Parvati's string of 5 episodes from Episode 9 to Episode 13 is the weirdest group ever -- UTRP3, UTRM2, OTTN4, MORP4, CPP4. Especially since UTRM is also rare.
TheEasyOne		#1991	[-]
Posts: 2207 (10/28/09 5:43 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	chapera rocks wrote: LOL Brett
cantthinkofaname		#1992	[-]
Posts: 1512 (10/28/09 5:53 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	astroline wrote: Katy Carney wrote: I didn't even know there was such a thing as UTR3. That's cos you're too busy making cool ranking threads. <3 Nick was UTR3 in Exile Island and Parvati was UTRP3 in Cooks. Dunno if there are any others, but it's possible. Parvati's string of 5 episodes from Episode 9 to Episode 13 is the weirdest group ever -- UTRP3, UTRM2, OTTN4, MORP4, CPP4. Especially since UTRM is also rare. Don't forget Lill and Jason in episode 2 of their PI and FVF respectively, and Lisa in episode 5 of Vanuatu. And I think there's only 2 UTRMs, Parvati and Jessica from CI.
cindidindi76		#1993	[-]
Posts: 20280 (10/28/09 6:25 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Does Brett have the worst edit ever for a young "good looking" guy on the winning tribe?
OnlyTheHunter		#1994	[-]
Posts: 2035 (10/28/09 6:30 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts	A note for Craig and Warrior - I am voting Mixed for Erik, not neutral, as ToneDog. Shambo, I agree with Craig, neutral. Jaison N. I need to re-read unduli's post about seven more times and think. Very interesting post. Michael
BlakeB717		#1995	[-]
Posts: 1976 (10/28/09 6:56 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Archibald C wrote: I'm a long time follower, infrequent poster and an edgic novice, but here's my two cence: I think that because the editing this season is so abnormal (Russel taking up most of the first several episodes, Galu almost nonexistant, the most invisible players we've ever seen), we should all be open to the possibility that the edgic will also be abnormal. Like a few other people, I think that Natalie might be our winner. Here's my evidence: 1. She's one of only a few people let that have had any visibility, including: Russel, Shambo, Mick, Jaison, Liz, Monica, and Erik (Laura, Kelly, Brett, John, Dave have been too invisible for multiple episodes). Natalie was in danger of joining the later group in the first two episodes, but since then she's been becoming more and more visible. I also think she's the only one left who is getting an edit that CBS thinks the American public would want. 2. Russel has been waaaaaaaaay too over the top, and far too negative. They wouldn't have edited him this way if they weren't setting him up to lose big time. Unlike other cocky winners (Todd, Parvati, Brian) he's not being portrayed as a confident sneaky assassin, but as a huge loud mouth tyrant, berating and then voting out some of our favorites (Marissa, Betsy). Russel is the sideshow of this season, something to distract us until the main event is ready. 3. Jaison, while having a few good moments (voting out Ben), hasn't said anything other than "This sucks I want to go home" for the last few episodes. Jenna Morasca had one moment of wanting to quit, and then came back stronger than ever, Jaison is just floating by until he gets voted out. 4. Mick, who deceptively seems like the winner, is just too apathetic. He hasn't really been making any moves, hasn't ever really discussed strategy, goes along with whatever Russel tells him to do, and is dull. Also, the public thinks he's dull. Go read the comment boards on Dalton Ross's blogs, everyone just keeps saying "Mick who?". He may be getting screen time, but he's essentially just lying there on the screen like a sack of potatoes. If he was the winner, there is a lot to do with him (more emphasis on his leadership, who is a friends with, what's his plan for down the road, other than let Galu pick him off, like he stated last episode). Mick is a red herring. 5. Shambo just seems too much like a Rupert to win. I think they're setting us up for a big downfall that we're supposed to mourn. 6. The rest of the players (Liz, Monica, Erik) have been visible, but either too negative, or visible but without really contributing anything that we've seen. 7. Natalie, who hasn't been given a lot of talking time, has never said anything that wasn't important to the plot of the show. She's also constantly getting sound bites, as others have pointed out, about what people's perceptions of her in the game are (Russel saying she's stupid, Mick saying that they will all get picked off), and how she plans on discrediting them. She's seen having personal relationships outside of strategy (Ashley, even Russel), which is important to being a winner, which most people this season are sorely lacking. And think about this, since Cook Islands we've had incredibly predictable winners that have been painfully obvious since episode one (except maybe Bob). Maybe this season they are trying to throw us off track by making is think that the winner is painfully obvious (Mick), when in reality he gets beaten by the girl who slowly sneaks into the season, episode by episode. Natalie is also a fairly mild mannered person in a season full of ridiculous, over the top personalities, so it makes sense that even if she was the winner, they are going to still play up Russel and Shambo (and before then, Ben and Betsy and Yasmin), because as much as I like Natalie, she can't provide the same amount of screen time as the others. I wouldn't be too shocked if Mick did end up being the winner, because my argument is based on the fact that they are trying to produce an entertaining show, and this season that's debatable, but I think that no matter what edgic might dictate, Natalie seems like the best choice to me. Also, I don't know how we can say an under the radar player who isn't very visible at the beginning of the show is impossible, when we have Vee, Amber, Danni, and Bob as evidence. And don't forget, even Tina was invisible in episode one. Until we have proof of highly odd winner edits, then discussing players who don't fit the guidelines as contenders does not belong in Edgic and belongs in some other "Type Y Edit Winner" thread.. but edgic is about the "Type X" which has yet to fail us.
fat little fingers		#1996	[-]
Posts: 6301 (10/28/09 9:37 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I do think Natalie has a connection to RusselH's fate. The edit had him repeating his utter smirky confidence that the women in his pseudo-alliances were too stupid to ever be anything but his disposable puppets. Though he said it of his whole tribe, it was repeated much more often about the women. His confidence was shown to be wrong with Betsy's scenes and especially, Natalie's confessional about using Russ to get herself further. Some quickly drew a line between Natalie beating Russ and winning. Maybe. But, there's nothing that says her awareness of Russ equals a win. It simply points to the likelihood of some sort of end-game story.
fat little fingers		#1997	[-]
Posts: 6302 (10/28/09 9:44 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Your facts are wrong with Mick. I'd like to second Werwanderflugen's list of Mick's strong points. I'd add that his confessional after meeting Shambo also had him tell us that she might be lying and that he knew that anything said to him could be a lie. This told us that he wasn't quite the naive puppet of RussH that Russ took him to be.
AveryC		#1998	[-]
Posts: 9 (10/29/09 1:56 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	As far as Natalie goes, doesn't the fact she had ZERO confessionals until episode 4 negate any possible chance of her winning? That's without even looking at her 4 UTR/INV episodes or any other edits. The only real problem with Mick is the similarities in his edit with Brandon and Gary.
Warrior		#1999	[-]
Posts: 2962 (10/29/09 6:57 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	FLF...Please
BlakeB717		#2000	[-]
Posts: 1977 (10/29/09 8:47 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	craig wrote: I vote the same way as OTH (and the edgic majority) on all 3 tone close calls. Erik Neu, Jaison N, Shannon Neu PS: I am Canadian Pay attention craig! OTH voted MIXED for Erik and you voted NEUTRAL, which isn't the same. Last Edited By: BlakeB717 10/29/09 9:00 AM. Edited 1 times.

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S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)