S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)

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Archibald C		#2141	[-]
Posts: 116 (10/30/09 8:16 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	And if that makes someone UTR not INV, why then did Natalie and Kelly both get INV in episode two? Kelly was featured prominently in the challenge, and she had a line about Shambo losing the fishing gear. Natalie was also featured in the challenge (fighting with Laura), had a brief scene with Ashley in the shelter, and had the scene where Betsy tried to convince them to vote Ben. If 20 seconds of Rob talking about Vee while she floats around in the ocean warrants an UTR, I think that should to.
BlakeB717		#2142	[-]
Posts: 2007 (10/30/09 8:17 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	chapera rocks wrote: fat little fingers wrote: He was INV1. He had one comment about Ozzy being like King Poseidon ... this comment was from a panned-out shot, and was very, very quick. I think people wanted to keep him edgically viable by giving him a UTR1, but from what I remember (and I rewached it a few months ago), he was definitely INV1. cr, you've just explained how UTR1 gets reshaped into INV. And the more INV becomes UTR1, the more likely it'll bite us on the ass one day. Let UTR1 be UTR1 and don't be tempted to use INV unless it's just that: invisible, unheard, unmentioned, absent, lost in the group shots, walking in the background past the scene's focus. If we start allowing that "not enough" was said to earn UTR1, then we have some other animal than INV. Because, well, the character was... visible. To me, INV1 has no significant moment in the episode, and what Yul said was not significant. They threw that comment in there to show how Ozzy was the Poseidon King, not to develop Yul. There was no focus on the fact that Yul said it, and therefore it should not be enough to give him a UTR1. There have been plenty of INV1's that have had similar situations, but they actually got INV1. Some examples I can think of off the top of my head: - Bruce, Episode 6. Extended scene of karate. Are you telling me this was less than Yul's quick, throwaway, panned out sentence (and Blake, the recap should not factor into the episode rating). - Danielle, Episode 7. In shelter, commenting on the others with Cirie I believe. How is this less than what Yul said? - Alexis, Episode 8. Talking with Ozzy on exile. This had more focus than Yul given that there was only two of them and Ozzy was talking directly to Alexis, and she was talking directly to him. - Corinne, Episode 5. Extended scene where she discusses her pick with her tribe, and ultimately decides on Susie. Yul had 4 sentences, just as Brad had in Episode 2. Just as Rebecca had in episode 3. Jenny had 3 in episode 3. If you ask me, those areas are much more gray than giving Yul an INV1 (that he deserved). Sorry, mini-rant over. Maybe I will rewatch the episode again, but I think that's a pretty solid case. I think you'd be better off rewatching it. From the recap, to Becky's confessional, to him being present in every scene (and not in the distance, he was there) and even getting subtitled lines.. it's enough (in E4 of a 20 person season) for UTR1.
AveryC		#2143	[-]
Posts: 16 (10/30/09 8:23 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Yul had 4 sentences, just as Brad had in Episode 2. Just as Rebecca had in episode 3. Jenny had 3 in episode 3. If you ask me, those areas are much more gray than giving Yul an INV1 (that he deserved). I have Brad as UTR1 for that episode, and it was also a close call in the S13 Edgic thread. I thought Parvati deserved an INV more than Brad in episode 2, but ulimately gave her UTR1 as well. Rebecca's Vis Factor in episode 3 was actually 1, but she got significant challange screentime and strong SPV from Probst. She also got UTR1 from me. Jenny was definately INV in episode 3. The main thing I considered in awarding INV's was whether I had any recollection of the contestant in question at the end of the episode. And that's why Yul got UTR1. It was more of a cooldown then would've been preferred but he wasn't INV.
NickF227		#2144	[-]
Posts: 12372 (10/30/09 8:26 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I think you'd be better off rewatching it. From the recap, to Becky's confessional, to him being present in every scene (and not in the distance, he was there) and even getting subtitled lines.. it's enough (in E4 of a 20 person season) for UTR1. It apparently wasn't enough for Natalie this season in Ep 2, though?
SurvivorGuy24		#2145	[-]
Posts: 1024 (10/30/09 8:27 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Natalie's edit has much bigger problems than whether she was INV or UTR in a particular episode.
BlakeB717		#2146	[-]
Posts: 2008 (10/30/09 8:48 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	NickF227 wrote: I think you'd be better off rewatching it. From the recap, to Becky's confessional, to him being present in every scene (and not in the distance, he was there) and even getting subtitled lines.. it's enough (in E4 of a 20 person season) for UTR1. It apparently wasn't enough for Natalie this season in Ep 2, though? Natalie wasn't in the recap, nor did she get subtitled (on screen) lines, nor was she involved in many of the scenes (the only one was Betty talking to her and Ashley, and her back faced the screen, plus Ashley got a confessional during that scene to detract focus off Natalie). That was also a TC episode for that tribe, unlike Yul whose tribe only got 2 scenes that episode, and cmon this was Foa Foa--they had pretty much all the screentime that Ep (Galu got TWO scenes--Shambo's fishing and Yasmin about the woods, and the first scene with Yasmin was very small)..so about 35 minutes (since the show is only abou 45 minutes without the commercials) and Natalie got next to nothing. Natalie E2 and Yul E4 are not comparable. Again, let's not beat a dead horse. Hindsight on ratings is always 20/20. What they got it what they got, and the INV rule has yet to fail :) It will, once again, not fail us this season.
Archibald C		#2147	[-]
Posts: 117 (10/30/09 9:02 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Natalie was featured in the recap. Jeff is talking about Russell making alliances with people on the tribe, and it then shows clips of him talking to Ashley, Natalie, and Marissa, with him saying: "I made an alliance with the dumb short haired blond girl, the even dumber long haired blond girl, and the dumb brown haired girl." She's also mentioned by name in several scenes, and by Jeff Probst, and has multiple close ups and reaction shots (I just rewatched the episode). I think compared to someone like Brett, whose name was only mentioned once, during the challenge when Jeff said something like "Brett just got knocked over!", and who was never seen speaking or not in the group, that's just enough for an UTR1. Whether or not that means anything for her down the road isn't what I'm getting at, from watching the show and then looking at the ratings, I think that INV is thrown around too much, especially this season. At least in Ep. 2, Natalie and Kelly were not totally invisible. I wouldn't say they left a lifelong impression, but they were shown somewhere other than the challenge line up.
BlakeB717		#2148	[-]
Posts: 2009 (10/30/09 9:06 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Archibald C wrote: Natalie was featured in the recap. Jeff is talking about Russell making alliances with people on the tribe, and it then shows clips of him talking to Ashley, Natalie, and Marissa, with him saying: "I made an alliance with the dumb short haired blond girl, the even dumber long haired blond girl, and the dumb brown haired girl." She's also mentioned by name in several scenes, and by Jeff Probst, and has multiple close ups and reaction shots (I just rewatched the episode). I think compared to someone like Brett, whose name was only mentioned once, during the challenge when Jeff said something like "Brett just got knocked over!", and who was never seen speaking or not in the group, that's just enough for an UTR1. Whether or not that means anything for her down the road isn't what I'm getting at, from watching the show and then looking at the ratings, I think that INV is thrown around too much, especially this season. At least in Ep. 2, Natalie and Kelly were not totally invisible. I wouldn't say they left a lifelong impression, but they were shown somewhere other than the challenge line up. I think you may not understand what INV is. Jeff saying "Kelly's a monster!" is not enough to give her UTR1. Challenge dominance (like Eliza in one of the late pre-merge episodes) may take a player out of INV. INV: Completely ignored, not there, we are reminded/learn nothing about them, their presence likely would be overlooked by the viewing audience UTR1: like flf said: heard, mentioned, not absent, in the group shots, in the scene's focus.
chapera rocks		#2149	[-]
Posts: 11875 (10/30/09 9:12 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I think you'd be better off rewatching it. From the recap, to Becky's confessional, to him being present in every scene (and not in the distance, he was there) and even getting subtitled lines.. it's enough (in E4 of a 20 person season) for UTR1. Recap should not count towards the episode's ratings. If it did, that would change many ratings that would change many, many ratings. If Yul truly deserved a UTR1, it would have nothing to do with a recap confessional. Or anything that has to do with the recap at all.
SurvivorGuy24		#2150	[-]
Posts: 1025 (10/30/09 9:14 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	No winner (including Danni, Bob, Vecepia, Tina or Amber) has ever had zero confessionals in the first three episodes of their season. That's an even bigger strike against Natalie than her INV/UTR.
Werwanderflugen		#2151	[-]
Posts: 271 (10/30/09 9:19 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	No winner (including Danni, Bob, Vecepia, Tina or Amber) has ever had zero confessionals in the first three episodes of their season. That's an even bigger strike against Natalie than her INV/UTR. X
Archibald C		#2152	[-]
Posts: 118 (10/30/09 9:22 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	BlakeB717 wrote: Archibald C wrote: Natalie was featured in the recap. Jeff is talking about Russell making alliances with people on the tribe, and it then shows clips of him talking to Ashley, Natalie, and Marissa, with him saying: "I made an alliance with the dumb short haired blond girl, the even dumber long haired blond girl, and the dumb brown haired girl." She's also mentioned by name in several scenes, and by Jeff Probst, and has multiple close ups and reaction shots (I just rewatched the episode). I think compared to someone like Brett, whose name was only mentioned once, during the challenge when Jeff said something like "Brett just got knocked over!", and who was never seen speaking or not in the group, that's just enough for an UTR1. Whether or not that means anything for her down the road isn't what I'm getting at, from watching the show and then looking at the ratings, I think that INV is thrown around too much, especially this season. At least in Ep. 2, Natalie and Kelly were not totally invisible. I wouldn't say they left a lifelong impression, but they were shown somewhere other than the challenge line up. I think you may not understand what INV is. Jeff saying "Kelly's a monster!" is not enough to give her UTR1. Challenge dominance (like Eliza in one of the late pre-merge episodes) may take a player out of INV. INV: Completely ignored, not there, we are reminded/learn nothing about them, their presence likely would be overlooked by the viewing audience UTR1: like flf said: heard, mentioned, not absent, in the group shots, in the scene's focus. Yes, I understand that. I think Brett deserved an INV for that episode, because even though he got a shout out in the challenge, he wasn't present anywhere else in the episode. But Natalie and Kelly were. They didn't contribute a ton to the episode, but they weren't invisible. I think both of them, throughout the episode, had enough going for them to warrant an UTR1, if you're saying that Yul, with one line and several reaction shots and close ups, can also get an UTR1.
BlakeB717		#2153	[-]
Posts: 2010 (10/30/09 9:23 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	chapera rocks wrote: I think you'd be better off rewatching it. From the recap, to Becky's confessional, to him being present in every scene (and not in the distance, he was there) and even getting subtitled lines.. it's enough (in E4 of a 20 person season) for UTR1. Recap should not count towards the episode's ratings. If it did, that would change many ratings that would change many, many ratings. If Yul truly deserved a UTR1, it would have nothing to do with a recap confessional. Or anything that has to do with the recap at all. We all agree that the recaps have a sense of manipulation and edit to them. It's not being in the recap that saved Yul from INV, but it was important because Becky got a confessional which mentioned Yul's importance in her staying (and Jeff in the recap talked allll about Yul and Jonathan). And whether they should count or not, for many people who vote, it does. Reading S13, the majority seemed to go for UTR, so there's no real need to discuss it now. I could go back and talk about how Stacy was MORN and not OTTNN in Episode 5, but that's how it goes. You think Yul was INV, but it doesn't mean he was (and doesn't mean the INV-rule is flawed). To this day, no winner has ever been awarded with an INV rating (besides Tina but that was explained and on purpose and editing has evolved) and it is still the best tool we have in eliminating people.
beatles20147		#2154	[-]
Posts: 12570 (10/30/09 9:23 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I was the ratings watchdog during CI and to this day I still say Yul was INV in that episode--don't remember to be honest whether it came down to a close call or not but my policy was always that if there was a INV/UTR1 close call, I'd give the benefit of the doubt and go with UTR. But I watched that full episode twice and that scene several more times and thought he was totally insignificant that week. Of course, I wasn't in the "INV = automatic elimination" camp so I didn't think it was overly detrimental to his winner chances, but I still think the reason he got the UTR was because of the prevailing "No, we can't eliminate Yul!" attitude. Isn't it established now that Amber was INV in an ASS episode?
OnlyTheHunter		#2155	[-]
Posts: 2037 (10/30/09 9:29 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Have to pack for FLA but I'll be back Sun night and get rankings in on time. Keep up the discussion. I am pondering things. Michael
Archibald C		#2156	[-]
Posts: 119 (10/30/09 9:41 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Also, on a side note, I think that: "No winner has ever _____" statements are good places to start looking at who could be added/removed from lists, but the criteria for a winner changes each season, which is part of why we keep watching the show. Before Sandra no winner had ever been given the first confessional of the season, before Vecepia no one who had an extremely UTR edit had won, before JT no winner had been excluded from the post-China into confessionals, etc. The editors are going to keep switching these things up as long as the show is on the air, because they don't want us to be able pick out the winner right off the bat. If they kept the criteria for a winner edit the same every season by now we should be able to pick them out within the first 10 minutes.
LKMOSCAR		#2157	[-]
Posts: 8079 (10/30/09 10:00 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	LKMOSCAR wrote: Galu Brett: INV1 Dave: UTR1 Erik: INV1 John: UTR1 Kelly: UTR1 Laura: UTRP1 Monica: UTR1 Russell S: UTR1 Shambo: MORN2 Yasmin: OTTN5 Foa Foa Ashley: CPP4 Ben: OTTNN5 Betsy: CPP4 Elizabeth: CP4 Jaison: CP4 Mick: MOR4 Mike: OTT3 Natalie: UTR1 Russell H: CPN5 My rating for Natalie in episode 2. ^_^ Found on page 35.
scepticA		#2158	[-]
Posts: 1742 (10/30/09 10:05 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I think all this Yul-tide talk is a way of trying to rationalize expanding edgic choices beyond Mick and the Two Distractions and the Whiner. It never occurred to me that Yul was INV. My gosh, they subtitled what he said. But if it makes people happy to play with Yul's ratings to justify looking at all the INVs this season, knock yourselves out.
astroline		#2159	[-]
Posts: 2703 (10/30/09 10:10 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I had Bob with 2 INV's -- one which he was tied in Visibility with Corinne. She got an INV, he got UTR. What the fuck? I also think that Natalie's Episode 2 and Yul's Episode 4 are both equal, both INV. Recaps don't count. Laura got an INV recently and she had a confessional in the recap. Double standard much to whoever suggested that? I think it's possible for winners to get INV's but we don't give them out if they're not 100% obvious. That being said, Natalie's INV doesn't bother me as a winner choice, but it's the lack of personal insight we've seen from her in 5 out of 7 episodes now. She's received 4 total confessionals in a span of only 2 episodes, and none until Episode 4. That would be by far the slowest start for a winner ever, especially considering she was on the tribe that received 90% of the airtime for those 3 episodes. I'm starting to think Russell H. wins now. The "evil mastermind" we see is only in confessionals. Everyone out there seems to like and respect him, for whatever reason. We're so distracted by "obvious Edgic winner" Mick that we're missing the REAL obvious choice. After Episode 7, what have we seen that Mick could tell the jury about why to vote for him? Nothing. With Russell H. and even Natalie, we could see both of their cases and why they could get votes. Mick could possibly be another Stephen or Amanda. ETA: It turns out Laura didn't have that 2nd INV I thought she had. My bad. Last Edited By: astroline 10/30/09 10:15 PM. Edited 1 times.
Archibald C		#2160	[-]
Posts: 120 (10/30/09 10:25 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	astroline wrote: I had Bob with 2 INV's -- one which he was tied in Visibility with Corinne. She got an INV, he got UTR. What the fuck? I also think that Natalie's Episode 2 and Yul's Episode 4 are both equal, both INV. Recaps don't count. Laura got an INV recently and she had a confessional in the recap. Double standard much to whoever suggested that? I think it's possible for winners to get INV's but we don't give them out if they're not 100% obvious. That being said, Natalie's INV doesn't bother me as a winner choice, but it's the lack of personal insight we've seen from her in 5 out of 7 episodes now. She's received 4 total confessionals in a span of only 2 episodes, and none until Episode 4. That would be by far the slowest start for a winner ever, especially considering she was on the tribe that received 90% of the airtime for those 3 episodes. I'm starting to think Russell H. wins now. The "evil mastermind" we see is only in confessionals. Everyone out there seems to like and respect him, for whatever reason. We're so distracted by "obvious Edgic winner" Mick that we're missing the REAL obvious choice. After Episode 7, what have we seen that Mick could tell the jury about why to vote for him? Nothing. With Russell H. and even Natalie, we could see both of their cases and why they could get votes. Mick could possibly be another Stephen or Amanda. Thank you! I agree 100%. Whether or not the Yul/Natalie/Kelly episodes should be INV or UTR1, I think they should be rated the same. I think both Natalie or Russell winning would definitely be a big leap, but I don't think either are impossible, no matter what logic they defy. A Mick win would just be too boring to believe. The jury would have to be on qualudes to vote for him.

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