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clever trousers |
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While the Hebrew Bible has been included with the "New Testament" to be fair Christians have spent the last 2000 years or so working hard to be
"not Jews".
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Citizen Postal |
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the evolution of christianity/judaism into (relatively) peaceful stuff cannot be seperated from the evolution of western civilization as a society, and their enlightment.Best reply yet. Thank you for your thoughts. Your arguement is probably more valid than mine. But mine sounds better, bish. But the qu'ran is the unchanging word of Allah.Oh don't gimme that crap. The unchanging word of the one true god as recorded in the bible has changed countless times. Science proves that a biblically based belief is total shit? "That was meant symbolically." Come on now. There can really be no "enlightenment" stage. The qu'ran isn't going to change. You can't tone down "kill infidels" to "love everyone".Christians did it pretty well. |
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Shagnanigans |
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They may say that, but Christians are still embracing many ideas laid out in the old testament. I wouldn't say they're trying very hard to be "not
Jews."
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kutabeach |
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Citizen Postal wrote: But that is not true. You keep saying it, it doesn't make it right. |
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Eric in San Diego |
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I believe the central theme here is that organized religions, whether Abrahamic or not, DIVIDE humans into separate groups, ensuring that "different"
means BAD. Even within religions, there are sects that war against one another because of slight variations in belief. Christians like to think they are above
all of that, but I have to call BULLSHIT on them! Catholics vs. Protestants, Baptists vs. Episcopalians, etc. ad nauseum.
Seems to me that we as humans have a whole bunch of growing up yet to do, provided we don't manage to exterminate ourselves in the name of some "God". |
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ashley madison |
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or some fairy tale called "the holy bible"
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Goosehead |
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Religions adapt to their social environment. As a rule, develop a strong middle-class society in any religious context and you'll produce predominately
middle-class values (the desire for stability and security being the top value). When I talk to Muslim friends here in Canada, they often sympathize with
groups that violently oppose Israel, but they can never come to defend the actual use of violence. Why? Because they've been socialised as middle-class
liberals. This is the key.
Any religious group raised in a primarily poor, war-torn, desperate situation, will be more susceptible to extremism. Why were western European Jews so peaceful for all those centuries, despite systematic discrimination? Maybe because they were well integrated into the European middle-class. It wasn't until after that Holocaust that you see it turn into a militant ideology, i.e., Zionism. There was a need to ensure their security in the form of a state, and this makes perfect logical sense. Why do the most extreme Christians in the US tend to come from the South? Maybe because they tend to be poorer and seeking redemption. Why are there not more anti-US Muslim suicide bombers from very populous Muslim countries like Indonesia, Turkey, or Bangladesh? Because they're not Arab countries and don't have the same investment in the issues in the Middle East. Their beefs tend to be with the leadership of their own countries. It's all about structure and power-politics masquerading as religious dogma. |
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Citizen Postal |
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But that is not true.Either get educated and come on back, or keep your blinders on so that you're all safe and comfey and get thee gone. |
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DeadTwista |
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Eric in San Diego wrote: If someone wants to exterminate you in the name of a |
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BillGuido |
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Christians are most certainly not practicing "love everyone." To mention that as an absolute defeats your entire argument.
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Eric in San Diego |
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My karma ran over your dogma...
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kutabeach |
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Citizen Postal wrote:You cannot use Western Christian arguments on Middle Eastern Islamic though processes. They don't correlate. It's not ME that is giving you "that crap" that the qu'ran is the unchanging word of Allah - it is EVERY MUSLIM IN THE WORLD. The Bible is very different from the qu'ran. There can really be no "enlightenment" stage. The qu'ran isn't going to change. You can't tone down "kill infidels" to "love everyone".Christians did it pretty well. And how exactly does that apply to Muslims? Oh, that's right, it doesn't. Muslims do not see the qu'ran like Christians see the Bible. There will be no Martin Luther-led type reformation of Islam. |
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GregBuisIsADick |
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Islam has been as successful at creating holy warriors to kill infidels as the Catholic Church has been in creating people who don't have premarital sex.
And as I never tire of pointing out when it comes to discussions about how "violent" Muslims are, when it comes to body count they have nothing on
atheists (the Chinese under Mao or Soviets under Stalin) or Christians (the Germans under Hitler). Americans conveniently forget that they killed well over
500,000 Vietnamese before pulling out and are still the only country to use nuclear weapons against a civilian population. Twice. Praise be God.
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MyPetGoat |
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The Old Testament was full of regulations and laws meant to remind the Jews of their need for a permanent sacrifice or saviour. Jesus said that he came to
replace that law and be the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Christians were supposed to now be bound by two principles, to love god and love their neighbour.
They were free to discard the minutiae of the old law and embrace the new.
The issue was that the "clergy" of the time didn't like this concept because it took away their power over the people and so the got rid of this crazy Jesus talking about love and shit. IMO most "Christians" today follow American Idol closer than they do the teachings of Christ. |
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Ann Margret Thatcher |
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Some Christians fall back on Old Testament law when it's convenient for them. Like embracing Mosaic Law, but more or less ignoring others in Leviticus.
Thou Shalt Honor the Sabbath, but Thou Mayest Disregard That Shellfish Thing.
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TheCatcherInTheRye |
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IMO most "Christians" today follow American Idol closer than they do the teachings of Christ. True. |
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clever trousers |
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Even the Sabbath thing - they chose a different day...to be "not Jews".
Exactly what AMT is saying, then it devolves into the Pauline works vs. faith argument. |
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Ann Margret Thatcher |
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There have already been divisions among Muslims, hence the Sunni and Shia (Le Boeuf). Fundamentalists want to stick with theocracy, while modern Muslims prefer
a secular government. Then there's the disagreement over the true meaning of jihad.
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Citizen Postal |
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Muslims do not see the qu'ran like Christians see the Bible. There will be no Martin Luther-led type reformation of Islam.I disagree entirely. There are plenty of very nice things said in islam's holy book. I think the followers of it will eventually shift to paying more attention to those parts than the angry, mean ones. Just like their big brothers the christians did. |
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kutabeach |
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BillGuido wrote: Ok, some people are not "getting it". I will try to be more clear. The teachings and the doctrines of the Bible - in particular the New Testament - are very clear. Hate the sin love the sinner, turn the other cheek, things like that. God is Love. Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.... There isn't anything in the Bible that condones the deplorable behavior that has been done in its name over the last two thousand years. People can point to specific passages, especially in the Old Testament, about the Jews decimating villages, God burning entire cities, etc...but that doesn't mean that the Bible makes it right to blow up an abortion clinic or kill non-believers. That is the point I am trying to make. You keep saying people have done bad things in the name of the Bible. That is true. But it is also true that the people doing the bad things are not following the Bible correctly. They are not hating the sin, loving the sinner. They are not turning the other cheek. By contrast, the qu'ran is quite clear. The qu'ran, the unchanging word of Allah, tells Muslims to kill unbelievers "until all religion is for Allah". That isn't just a command for action in the time of Mohammad. That is a command for action for all time. That is why the global jihad still goes on, and has gone on since 680 AD and will go on forever. |
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