S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)

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Hippochinfat		#3241	[-]
Posts: 284 (11/13/09 4:08 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Do you think you could argue a weak CP for Kelly? She was the main one strategizing at the reward, how they need to get rid of Russel, how Shambo can't be trusted etc.
BlakeB717		#3242	[-]
Posts: 2267 (11/13/09 4:10 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Hippochinfat wrote: Do you think you could argue a weak CP for Kelly? She was the main one strategizing at the reward, how they need to get rid of Russel, how Shambo can't be trusted etc. I definitely saw it as good insight, although it didn't really develop her; but then she vanished. I think MOR is best.
astroline		#3243	[-]
Posts: 2761 (11/13/09 4:12 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	BlakeB717 wrote: Joaqenix wrote: SurvivorNinja wrote: ETA: I want Natalie to beat Mick just so Blake will eat a crow. and hopefully choke on it <3 If Natalie wins I won't be "eating" anything. It wouldn't be Edgic and those who picked her, in my opinion, didn't use Edgic and went based on other criteria (which is all good, as long as it isn't spoilers, but this is the wrong thread to do so). So we're supposed to intentionally pick a wrong pick, just so it fits Edgic guidelines?
MasterDarkNinja		#3244	[-]
Posts: 2876 (11/13/09 4:13 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	scepticA wrote: Archibald, I agree about the smart/clever distinction for RH. However, what do you make of him telling us he's gonna keep the HII quiet (two times!) and then spilling the beans (two times!) My perception is that he really wants others to ooh and aah over his great smarts, and he's seeking out external validation. Which is not IMO usually very smart OR clever. But we're not getting much of any inkling that any of the others have any cogent strategic vision at all, so his stands out almost by default. We should acknowledge that he's not just sucking away all of the visibility, but just about all of the wheeling,dealing,strategizing, and all that other cool stuff. We only heard of one divergent plan, the 4 galu guys + shambo. That lasted all of 1 episode. So in the land of the strategically blind, this one-eyed chap seems rather wise. The only other strategic play that's been highlighted is Natalie in this ep. I disagree, unlike last time Russel only told the right people about his HII, the people who didn't tell his enemies about it. He told his Foa Foa allies, and they voted with him and didn't tell Gelu. He told Shambo, and she clearly didn't tell the Gelu's about his HII, otherwise they wouldn't have all voted for Russel knowing he had the HII.
BlakeB717		#3245	[-]
Posts: 2268 (11/13/09 4:15 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	astroline wrote: BlakeB717 wrote: Joaqenix wrote: SurvivorNinja wrote: ETA: I want Natalie to beat Mick just so Blake will eat a crow. and hopefully choke on it <3 If Natalie wins I won't be "eating" anything. It wouldn't be Edgic and those who picked her, in my opinion, didn't use Edgic and went based on other criteria (which is all good, as long as it isn't spoilers, but this is the wrong thread to do so). So we're supposed to intentionally pick a wrong pick, just so it fits Edgic guidelines? Unless you're reading spoilers, you don't know if Mick is the wrong pick. At least I acknowledge that a Natalie or RussH win isn't out of the question, just that it wouldn't be Edgic and I'm not sure the thread would carry on if that happened.
SurvivorNinja		#3246	[-]
Posts: 3044 (11/13/09 4:17 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	It makes it difficult to discuss edgic using purely edgic when there is so much wrong with edgic. A lot of the official ratings are insane on all counts. I've seen plenty of visibilities, tones and ratings that I completely disagree with and there are few winners that I personally have given INV1. How can we discuss properly whether someone is edgically viable based on the ratings when half the people here disagree with what the ratings even mean. That is the reason I usually only browse here rather than actively involving myself. There is too much bias and spoiler leaks around here. ETA Unless you're reading spoilers, you don't know if Mick is the wrong pick. At least I acknowledge that a Natalie or RussH win isn't out of the question, just that it wouldn't be Edgic and I'm not sure the thread would carry on if that happened. Bob. Last Edited By: SurvivorNinja 11/13/09 4:20 PM. Edited 1 times.
scepticA		#3247	[-]
Posts: 1794 (11/13/09 4:21 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	MasterDarkNinja wrote: scepticA wrote: Archibald, I agree about the smart/clever distinction for RH. However, what do you make of him telling us he's gonna keep the HII quiet (two times!) and then spilling the beans (two times!) My perception is that he really wants others to ooh and aah over his great smarts, and he's seeking out external validation. Which is not IMO usually very smart OR clever. But we're not getting much of any inkling that any of the others have any cogent strategic vision at all, so his stands out almost by default. We should acknowledge that he's not just sucking away all of the visibility, but just about all of the wheeling,dealing,strategizing, and all that other cool stuff. We only heard of one divergent plan, the 4 galu guys + shambo. That lasted all of 1 episode. So in the land of the strategically blind, this one-eyed chap seems rather wise. The only other strategic play that's been highlighted is Natalie in this ep. I disagree, unlike last time Russel only told the right people about his HII, the people who didn't tell his enemies about it. He told his Foa Foa allies, and they voted with him and didn't tell Gelu. He told Shambo, and she clearly didn't tell the Gelu's about his HII, otherwise they wouldn't have all voted for Russel knowing he had the HII. MDN, in both cases he told us in a confessional, "I'm not going to tell anyone." Not, "I'm only going to tell my allies." In both cases he contradicted his own claim to the camera. The fact that he did tell his allies is cool, but whatever was the point of his confessionals? Did he mean it when he said it, but just changed is mind - twice? It's not whether his decision to tell his allies was a good or bad decision (I'm with you on this), but instead it's the weird confessional stand of his: I got it, I ain't telling no one about it - immediately followed by edits of him contradicting his own plan. I just thought that was odd, not the fact he told people. Because he told us he wouldn't, that's all. I get the feeling that this is an example of his confessionals being just so much BS that he is intentionally shovelling at the cameras. Then he goes out and does what he planned on doing all along. ANyone have another explanation for his confessionals?
scepticA		#3248	[-]
Posts: 1795 (11/13/09 4:24 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	survivorninja, I look forward to your constructive suggestions for improving edgic after the season is over. Given that you think edgic is so flawed, I don't suspect you'll bother with us until after the season anyway. After all, why waste your time with something that is so bad, is so insane? Ah, missionaries are so rarely appreciated among the heathen.
BlakeB717		#3249	[-]
Posts: 2269 (11/13/09 4:25 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Unless you're reading spoilers, you don't know if Mick is the wrong pick. At least I acknowledge that a Natalie or RussH win isn't out of the question, just that it wouldn't be Edgic and I'm not sure the thread would carry on if that happened. Bob. At least for me, the only guideline Bob broke was too much tone (JT also committed this). Some people had him with a CPP3 UTR1 MOR2 start which is pretty good. For me, I gave him a MORP in E1. A lot of people handed out OTTPs for him because he was the "old man with a P edit". He was a lot less distracting than I think his Edgic suggests. Bob got decent focus in E1 right off the bat (we learned about him, as we did with JT... and Mick) and never was INV.
SurvivorNinja		#3250	[-]
Posts: 3045 (11/13/09 4:32 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	scepticA wrote: survivorninja, I look forward to your constructive suggestions for improving edgic after the season is over. Given that you think edgic is so flawed, I don't suspect you'll bother with us until after the season anyway. After all, why waste your time with something that is so bad, is so insane? Ah, missionaries are so rarely appreciated among the heathen. There is no point. Things were not changed after Bob won so they won't be if Natalie wins. If Natalie wins that is the end of edgic anyway according to Blake. A big reason edgic is so flawed is closed minded people. Kthx.
astroline		#3251	[-]
Posts: 2763 (11/13/09 4:35 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Thank you, SurvivorNinja. I'm right on your wavelength and I've been trying to explain that for weeks. Instead of adapting and looking for the next Bob type situation, everyone wants to just write it off as an anomaly and look for the next Earl/Yul every season instead. And Blake, if Bob only broke 1 Edgic guideline for you, why did none of us (except Kitty, in the penultimate episode) pick him?
SurvivorNinja		#3252	[-]
Posts: 3046 (11/13/09 4:39 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	BlakeB717 wrote: Unless you're reading spoilers, you don't know if Mick is the wrong pick. At least I acknowledge that a Natalie or RussH win isn't out of the question, just that it wouldn't be Edgic and I'm not sure the thread would carry on if that happened. Bob. At least for me, the only guideline Bob broke was too much tone (JT also committed this). Some people had him with a CPP3 UTR1 MOR2 start which is pretty good. For me, I gave him a MORP in E1. A lot of people handed out OTTPs for him because he was the "old man with a P edit". He was a lot less distracting than I think his Edgic suggests. Bob got decent focus in E1 right off the bat (we learned about him, as we did with JT... and Mick) and never was INV. Bob had a handful of UTR1s in a row though. Sure they were not the first 3 episodes like with Natalie but even with his UTR1s he was featured enough to be remembered for one thing or another. Natalie was much the same. She had a lot of important scenes in the first episode even if she wasn't the most prominent. Her lowest visibility of the season of the top of my head would be Episode 2 but as someone pointed out earlier there were many factors at the start of this season for Natalie to be hidden (the leaders, Evil Russ, Ashley the decoy, Ben vs Marisa). People still remember who Nat is but few remember or care about Mick. I just want to be clear with you Blake. I have heard you say that a Nat or Russ win is not out of the question but I haven't seen you support that. I was under the impression that you were so against it.
Archibald C		#3253	[-]
Posts: 137 (11/13/09 4:39 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	guatemala fanfic wrote: wallduck wrote: chapera rocks wrote: Re: Russell H. I think if he won, they would edit him the same way. I don't think so. This episode shows that all the "they have to edit Russell that way" stuff is wrong. The point of edgic is that the editing can create whatever impression they want. If Russell were the winner, the sequence would be: neutral or P at the start, then N, then neutral or P at the end. First impressions count the most, and so the editing of a winner is never a sequence of N at the start, then neutral or P in the middle. If Russell makes it to the end game, expect another turn toward N. I disagree. I still maintain that the producers completely fabricated him as the "biggest villain ever" so they had something to promote in early promos and something to get people talking about after the first episode. I believe this is why he was made so negative in the beginning. They needed to draw people in and let them see how "bad" Russell was, when, in reality, he hasn't been much of a villain since the first 1-2 episodes. Naturally, with Foa Foa becoming underdogs he's going to get a little more positive (for him, that means closer to netural). I agree that he may become more negative again if he is in the end game, but I think his early edit was just a marketing tool and I don't think it would be any different whether he won or not. But I think that if they wanted a huge villain to kick the season promos off with, they could have easily had it be Ben, who Marissa and Betsy both said was worse than Russell. Hell, they could have even had a slightly fabricated story of Ben being just plain horrible, and Russell is the anti-hero who in the end gets rid of the Big Bad Wolf. Instead we were treated to 40 non-stop minutes of his destroying people's personal possessions, trying to dehydrate them, and lying about Hurricane Katrina. That is going to come in to play later on.
Shred		#3254	[-]
Posts: 52 (11/13/09 4:41 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Things pointing to a Natalie win 1. Episode 4 saying she is playing a social game so she can work it into her favor at the end (Exactly what she has done) 2. Episode 5 had a nice scene with Ashley to make audiences think more of her (Something Mick has yet to get) 3. Natalie gets full credit for the Erik boot (Which was very odd and great for her) 4. Natalie being called a true Survivor ala Parvati.
SuperSmizeMe		#3255	[-]
Posts: 6 (11/13/09 4:48 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Never Lol because that isn't Edgic. Unless the Final 6 is Natalie, John, Brett, Dave Laura, and Monica, Natalie will not be my winner pick. I would love to see her win, she's easily one of my favorites this season. However, her winning would effectively end any accuracy in Edgic IMHO. Note: most Natalie winner pickers are random drop-bys saying "Wishful thinking I know but I really feel it!!" Hmmm.... I have been lurking for quite awhile. I've seen edgic since Micronesia now, and I at least have some understanding of edgic. I'm not wishfully thinking that Natalie wins, her edit supports a win better than Mick's. It isn't wishful, it's knowledge. This season is completely unusual, I don't think it's too far a stretch to say "Hey, what if the girl who had an INV1 wins?" Considering editing bias towards women in this show and the fact that we have edits like Russell in Samoa, it only makes sense that in a season with 20 people, it is a very very fair idea that perhaps Natalie still has a shot in edgic. Even the people defending the principles of edgic have to admit that for this season, the rules need somewhat of a modification.
BlakeB717		#3256	[-]
Posts: 2270 (11/13/09 4:56 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	astroline wrote: Thank you, SurvivorNinja. I'm right on your wavelength and I've been trying to explain that for weeks. Instead of adapting and looking for the next Bob type situation, everyone wants to just write it off as an anomaly and look for the next Earl/Yul every season instead. And Blake, if Bob only broke 1 Edgic guideline for you, why did none of us (except Kitty, in the penultimate episode) pick him? Kenny, Marcus, and remotely Matty had better winner edits. He still didn't break guidelines. I understand not overlooking people so we don't make the mistake we did with Bob (we ignored his edit even though he didn't really break anything).. but this season there is no need to look over people who break guidelines. At least that's my philosophy.
BlakeB717		#3257	[-]
Posts: 2271 (11/13/09 4:57 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	SurvivorNinja wrote: BlakeB717 wrote: Unless you're reading spoilers, you don't know if Mick is the wrong pick. At least I acknowledge that a Natalie or RussH win isn't out of the question, just that it wouldn't be Edgic and I'm not sure the thread would carry on if that happened. Bob. At least for me, the only guideline Bob broke was too much tone (JT also committed this). Some people had him with a CPP3 UTR1 MOR2 start which is pretty good. For me, I gave him a MORP in E1. A lot of people handed out OTTPs for him because he was the "old man with a P edit". He was a lot less distracting than I think his Edgic suggests. Bob got decent focus in E1 right off the bat (we learned about him, as we did with JT... and Mick) and never was INV. Bob had a handful of UTR1s in a row though. Sure they were not the first 3 episodes like with Natalie but even with his UTR1s he was featured enough to be remembered for one thing or another. Natalie was much the same. She had a lot of important scenes in the first episode even if she wasn't the most prominent. Her lowest visibility of the season of the top of my head would be Episode 2 but as someone pointed out earlier there were many factors at the start of this season for Natalie to be hidden (the leaders, Evil Russ, Ashley the decoy, Ben vs Marisa). People still remember who Nat is but few remember or care about Mick. I just want to be clear with you Blake. I have heard you say that a Nat or Russ win is not out of the question but I haven't seen you support that. I was under the impression that you were so against it. Edgically speaking, they CANNOT win. I can see how, based on non-Edgic fundamentals (i.e. advertising ploys as gff has mentioned). If either win, I'm not sure I can continue with Edgic because its very principle is shattered and it will be impossible to eliminate people. Also, Bob had 3 UTRs in a row--as did Chris and Parvati--in the pre-merge.
Oowatanite		#3258	[-]
Posts: 9360 (11/13/09 5:02 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I get the feeling that this is an example of Russhole's confessionals being just so much BS that he is intentionally shovelling at the cameras. Then he goes out and does what he planned on doing all along. Anyone have another explanation for his confessionals? They are scripted ?
Kitty Pryde1		#3259	[-]
Posts: 10891 (11/13/09 5:03 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	BlakeB717 wrote: astroline wrote: Thank you, SurvivorNinja. I'm right on your wavelength and I've been trying to explain that for weeks. Instead of adapting and looking for the next Bob type situation, everyone wants to just write it off as an anomaly and look for the next Earl/Yul every season instead. And Blake, if Bob only broke 1 Edgic guideline for you, why did none of us (except Kitty, in the penultimate episode) pick him? Kenny, Marcus, and remotely Matty had better winner edits. He still didn't break guidelines. I understand not overlooking people so we don't make the mistake we did with Bob (we ignored his edit even though he didn't really break anything).. but this season there is no need to look over people who break guidelines. At least that's my philosophy. Technically, since he hasn't gotten two UTRs post-merge thus far, Jaison is a better Edgic pick than Mick. So get on changing your mind there, Blake.
BlakeB717		#3260	[-]
Posts: 2272 (11/13/09 5:05 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Shred wrote: Things pointing to a Natalie win 1. Episode 4 saying she is playing a social game so she can work it into her favor at the end (Exactly what she has done) 2. Episode 5 had a nice scene with Ashley to make audiences think more of her (Something Mick has yet to get) 3. Natalie gets full credit for the Erik boot (Which was very odd and great for her) 4. Natalie being called a true Survivor ala Parvati. 1. So did Susie. Having a clear tie to the end-game has nothing to do with winning. I think people are forgetting this. 2. It showed that she's executing her strategy: Susie had a similar scene too of her working hard. Also, Mick has had plenty of P-ish scenes which make the audience think more of him (although this isn't Edgic, he is the most popular at CBS.com) 3. But it was her doing, why wouldn't they give her credit? They said in the preview for E8 that there would be a "surprising power player" or something: it was Natalie. They had to show it being her because they promoted it that way. Cirie made tones of moves in Micronesia (she got credit for Yau and Joel in the previews) 4. Parvati said "I am a SURVIVOR!" in the finale. Natalie is getting the "grow as a person" arc right now that Cirie, Erinn, and Stephen all strongly had during the merge portion (no winner had that to the same degree). Didn't we decide last season that those kinds of stories mean you come up short but walk away with "something more than a million dollars"?

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S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)