S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)

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rioothello		#3421	[-]
Posts: 40 (11/18/09 12:41 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	She was also mentioned in the recap.
chapera rocks		#3422	[-]
Posts: 11986 (11/18/09 1:00 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	1. Recap doesn't count. And from the recap, it was just Russell making a bunch of alliances. Not once was Natalie named. 2. Woman's intuition. Notice no isolated shots of Natalie. She doesn't noticeably speak. The focus is Betsy talking the whole time, and then there's an extended focus on ASHLEY followed by Ashley confessional. 3. Ashley's question to Natalie. Mentioning Natalie once by name the entire episode, in the dark, is enough for a UTR1? No. Listen, if you want to give Natalie a UTR1 for Episode 2, that is totally fine. But if you maintained your standards it would be almost IMPOSSIBLE to receive an INV1.
rioothello		#3423	[-]
Posts: 41 (11/18/09 1:08 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	IMO people who aren't featured or get no speaking parts get an INV. The editors showed those things on the show for a reason. If they wanted to truly leave her out, those two scenes with her speaking wouldn't have been featured.
chapera rocks		#3424	[-]
Posts: 11987 (11/18/09 1:12 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	The Betsy scene had nothing to do with Natalie. She just happened to be there. It was about Betsy trying to save herself and Ashley thinking about saving her. Then we see Ashley try to turn the votes by bashing Ben. Again, by your standards, it's almost impossible to get INV1. Because almost everyone gets some sort of arbitrary moment in every episode. See Brett last episode. But I don't see you arguing against his INV1.
rioothello		#3425	[-]
Posts: 42 (11/18/09 1:17 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	But then Betsy was pointing the stick to Natalie telling her "what about woman's intuition?" Then Natalie responded. Oh well. I don't care if you guys want to use the INV on her, there are still other people who would agree with me. And even if she truly did get an INV(IMO she didn't), that shouldn't rule her out. Tina had one and now Amber has had a debatable one. Even Bob has a debatable one(he had no speaking parts on episode 2).
chapera rocks		#3426	[-]
Posts: 11988 (11/18/09 1:34 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Yeah, and Dave was talking directly to Brett and actually received a clear response. But you still think he should be INV1? Betsy pointing a stick at Natalie ...? The entire scene was about Betsy and Ashley. Natalie was just there. Natalie responded to Betsy, but it was off camera AND indecipherable. And Betsy was talking over her. By edgic standards, she deserved INV1. By YOUR standards, INV1 doesn't even exist. Or it's extremely hard to get. From your statement it sounds like your motivation for having her as UTR1 is so that she's not eliminated edgically. But that shouldn't factor in. Either she's INV1 or not, and that shouldn't be affected by whether you want her to be a candidate or not. Like you said, other winners have had INV1 (although rare), so if you want to argue that, go ahead. But making weak arguments about how she wasn't INV1 in episode 2 just makes you appear desperate. That's not to say you are, but it's how it is coming across to me. Sorry if that sounded harsh, just trying to be objective.
BlakeB717		#3427	[-]
Posts: 2321 (11/18/09 1:37 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Have fun cr. I guess it's your turn with it!
getting real		#3428	[-]
Posts: 1899 (11/18/09 1:50 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	chapera rocks wrote: Yeah, and Dave was talking directly to Brett and actually received a clear response. But you still think he should be INV1? Betsy pointing a stick at Natalie ...? The entire scene was about Betsy and Ashley. Natalie was just there. Natalie responded to Betsy, but it was off camera AND indecipherable. And Betsy was talking over her. By edgic standards, she deserved INV1. By YOUR standards, INV1 doesn't even exist. Or it's extremely hard to get. From your statement it sounds like your motivation for having her as UTR1 is so that she's not eliminated edgically. But that shouldn't factor in. Either she's INV1 or not, and that shouldn't be affected by whether you want her to be a candidate or not. Like you said, other winners have had INV1 (although rare), so if you want to argue that, go ahead. But making weak arguments about how she wasn't INV1 in episode 2 just makes you appear desperate. That's not to say you are, but it's how it is coming across to me. Sorry if that sounded harsh, just trying to be objective. Objectively, I'd agree with the INV for that episode. If one wants to have Natalie as a winner's pick, it would have to be notwithstanding that flaw according to the Edgic guidelines. However, as we've noted several times, keeping Natalie as a winner's pick would depend on one's emphasis and what explanation one might be able to offer for that flaw. On an unrelated issue, MDN set me thinking about possible jury votes and, in particular, Shambo's vote. I was trying to figure out the significance of the scenes of Shambo telling the rest of Galu that she was against voting for Russell and, later, acting so happy for him when learning that he possessed the idol. Part of the rationale for these scenes would have been to build up this particular episode; however, in the end, Shambo didn't vote for Russell. Unless we suddenly see Shambo's edit turning CP , I feel that these scenes, especially the earlier one, were redundant and may be building up to something later. I think it's quite possible that we were being foretold that Shambo will be eventually betrayed by Russell and that she will turn against him.
panurge46		#3429	[-]
Posts: 1536 (11/18/09 6:49 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	chapera rocks wrote: The Betsy scene had nothing to do with Natalie. She just happened to be there. It was about Betsy trying to save herself and Ashley thinking about saving her. Then we see Ashley try to turn the votes by bashing Ben. CR, the scene had something to do with Natalie: We knew that Betsy had talked about women's intuition to Natalie before and now that she mentions it to Ashley we see that the 2 women react differently: Ashley as you say goes off against Russell's wishes, causing her own downfall. Natalie avoids the conflict and stays safe. It's her strategy shown once more, even if it was not discussed.
SurvivorGuy24		#3430	[-]
Posts: 1196 (11/18/09 7:06 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Now let's see the Natalie supporters try to rationalize the fact that she didn't get a confessional until episode 4: Ready, set...GO!
bryanpasa		#3431	[-]
Posts: 2770 (11/18/09 7:13 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I kinda agree on INV1 of Natalie in Episode 2. Though I don't think, with one INV1, you could get eliminated. (See Tina [Australian Outback]) Natalie's story is not an early story, it started at the middle of premerge and maybe until the endgame. Nobody fits those Page 1 Guidelines so I think a LOGICAL choice on winners pick would be good. Editing just sucks this season, so Logic should work.
getting real		#3432	[-]
Posts: 1900 (11/18/09 7:20 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	SurvivorGuy24 wrote: Now let's see the Natalie supporters try to rationalize provide plausible explanations for the fact that she didn't get a confessional until episode 4: Ready, set...GO! Fixed... And already done.
ncassaro		#3433	[-]
Posts: 1703 (11/18/09 7:37 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	rioothello wrote: But then Betsy was pointing the stick to Natalie telling her "what about woman's intuition?" Then Natalie responded. Oh well. I don't care if you guys want to use the INV on her, there are still other people who would agree with me. And even if she truly did get an INV(IMO she didn't), that shouldn't rule her out. Tina had one and now Amber has had a debatable one. Even Bob has a debatable one(he had no speaking parts on episode 2). Natalie didn't even have her name subtitled in that scene. She was definitely INV.
fat little fingers		#3434	[-]
Posts: 6351 (11/18/09 9:05 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Russell's story is ONLY about winning. That's the only thing he has in mind. Now who does that remind me of? Oh yeah - Richard, Brian, Tom, Earl, Todd...pretty much every male winner of Survivor ever. None had Russell's through- the- roof- and- now- leaving- the- solar- system visibilty. 7 of 9 episodes have been at Vis5 (only because the meter pegs at 5), and the rest have been Vis4. Russell's confessional content also constantly reminds us that he's overly pleased with his abilities and completely disrespectful of his tribemates. A first rule of warfare is never underestimate your enemy.
chapera rocks		#3435	[-]
Posts: 11990 (11/18/09 10:18 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	panurge46 wrote: chapera rocks wrote: The Betsy scene had nothing to do with Natalie. She just happened to be there. It was about Betsy trying to save herself and Ashley thinking about saving her. Then we see Ashley try to turn the votes by bashing Ben. CR, the scene had something to do with Natalie: We knew that Betsy had talked about women's intuition to Natalie before and now that she mentions it to Ashley we see that the 2 women react differently: Ashley as you say goes off against Russell's wishes, causing her own downfall. Natalie avoids the conflict and stays safe. It's her strategy shown once more, even if it was not discussed. The casual audience doesn't make that connection. I mean, if that scene makes Natalie non-INV, then again, it'd be very hard for an INV1 rating to exist in the first place. And we weren't given Natalie's thoughts on it. We could have at least heard her say that she didn't want to rock the boat. The audience isn't going to infer that she was implementing a strategy.
gretchensucks		#3436	[-]
Posts: 874 (11/18/09 11:37 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	chapera rocks wrote: 1. Recap doesn't count. And from the recap, it was just Russell making a bunch of alliances. Not once was Natalie named. 2. Woman's intuition. Notice no isolated shots of Natalie. She doesn't noticeably speak. The focus is Betsy talking the whole time, and then there's an extended focus on ASHLEY followed by Ashley confessional. 3. Ashley's question to Natalie. Mentioning Natalie once by name the entire episode, in the dark, is enough for a UTR1? No. Listen, if you want to give Natalie a UTR1 for Episode 2, that is totally fine. But if you maintained your standards it would be almost IMPOSSIBLE to receive an INV1. The standard of INV has been bullshit for a while now. Parvati was far more INV in the mixup episode of FvF. Other than her saying she had a busted lip, and correcting the pronunciation of her name there was nothing else. But everyone rated her UTR because she was a spoiled winner. Natalie's INV episode had far more visibility than Parvati in that one. That's just one example of a shit ton of biased edgic ratings. INV is a very loose rating. I don't think she was INV if the standard was set so low in other instances. If Parvati was UTR then Natalie was easily UTR. Edit: And BTW - please spare me the "Natalie Supporter" crap. I'm a fucking Russ supporter to the end! Last Edited By: gretchensucks 11/18/09 11:52 AM. Edited 1 times.
dennydoylelives		#3437	[-]
Posts: 2975 (11/18/09 11:41 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	panurge46 wrote: This could be Natalie's best moment: Russell told Natalie that she was wrong in thinking her plan had worked. He underestimated her just like she wanted him to. Her strategy is working, her story is looking good. Shouldn't her best moment at least include that peach bikini?
scepticA		#3438	[-]
Posts: 1809 (11/18/09 11:55 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	gretchensucks wrote: The standard of INV has been bullshit for a while now. Parvati was far more INV in the mixup episode of FvF. Other than her saying she had a busted lip, and correcting the pronunciation of her name there was nothing else. But everyone rated her UTR because she was a spoiled winner. Natalie's INV episode had far more visibility than Parvati in that one. That's just one example of a shit ton of biased edgic ratings. No, I rated Parv UTR because she was UTR. You recall the busted lip and the pronunciation. You recall it. That might not be a certainty tag that someone wasn't INV, but it helps. I couldn't recall Nat in ep 2, until someone pointed out that she was the person being talked to. She was so un-anything that I had no idea who she was. Great impression there. And I wasn't spoiled. A lot of us weren't spoiled.
gretchensucks		#3439	[-]
Posts: 876 (11/18/09 12:00 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	scepticA wrote: gretchensucks wrote: The standard of INV has been bullshit for a while now. Parvati was far more INV in the mixup episode of FvF. Other than her saying she had a busted lip, and correcting the pronunciation of her name there was nothing else. But everyone rated her UTR because she was a spoiled winner. Natalie's INV episode had far more visibility than Parvati in that one. That's just one example of a shit ton of biased edgic ratings. No, I rated Parv UTR because she was UTR. You recall the busted lip and the pronunciation. You recall it. That might not be a certainty tag that someone wasn't INV, but it helps. I couldn't recall Nat in ep 2, until someone pointed out that she was the person being talked to. She was so un-anything that I had no idea who she was. Great impression there. And I wasn't spoiled. A lot of us weren't spoiled. The only reason I recall it is because that was the bullshit excuse spoiled edgic-ers gave for rating her UTR. Natalie actually had dialogue, Parvati had a screenshot of a busted lip (when there were far more significant injuries...Ami's and Jonathan's knees). Talk about splitting fucking hairs. I mean, you guys act like it's not even debatable when presented with clear evidence.
kenc333		#3440	[-]
Posts: 9781 (11/18/09 12:53 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	MasterDarkNinja wrote: kenc333 wrote: First few minutes of the season... Probst says something along the lines of "first impressions are already forming" cuts to Brett talking about Shambo, Marisa talking about Russell Then they chose leaders based on first impressions, similar to the Tocantins vote.. Then based on first impressions, Mick and Russell S had to assign 4 people to play in the opening challenge. Jaison talked about defying a stereotype (which Mike talked about), Liz talked about not wanting to receive the negative connotations of being Asian. So maybe Natalie's overcoming the first impression and stereotype of being a 'dumb blonde.' I thought that was enough... Besides the opening in Tocantins, the only other times it was brought up was regarding Sydney in Sandy's boot episode and during the finale when JT and Stephen are the F2. Ok, I guess that's what I get for just doing casual edgicing/viewing the first 6 or 7 episodes. But still, I'm highly doubtful that a first impressions theme can explain Natalie's bad almost nonexistent edit the first 3 episodes with edgic, with a simple explanation of "the editors wanted us to be fooled into a wrong first impression of her to and then see that we were wrong about her later". I mean look at Liz, she worried that her first impression of all the Asian stereotypes, both positive and negative, would stick to her and get her voted out, and they did. Russel's first impression of Ashley being dumb proved correct I think, I don't recall her ever realizing Russel's dark side. Marissa was also kind of proven to be dumb with her exit, though it's debatable, yeah she knew Russel couldn't be trusted, but she told it to the wrong person, Russel, and lost because of that. Oh and don't forget that Russel's first impression of Betsy, and Betsy's impression of Russel, both proved correct. Sure some first impressions were wrong, like Shambo being smart, etc, but a 50/50 record doesn't exactly make first impressions of Natalie look like a cure all to her horrible first 3 episodes. This probably belongs in panurge's thread, but since it's mentioned here.. what if it's similar to the storytelling of Tocantins? Those who couldn't overcome their first impressions or see past their first impressions of others (Sandy, Spencer, etc.) fell short, while those who overcame these first impressions (JT, Stephen) triumphed. What if in Samoa, those who can't overcome their initial stereotypes (Ashley, Liz, etc.) fail, while Natalie overcomes the stereotype of being a 'dumb blonde' and succeeds? Okies you can go back to regular edgic discussion now <3

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S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)