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Dr Will Hatch two point oh wrote:

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squashthebeef wrote:

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Most people see the term 'welfare state' as a system of dependence. Since it is impossible for such a system to result in a golden era of prosperity, you obviously see it differently. Care to define?

I could...

Government is a legalized cartel. It's based on an outdated and frequently disproven idea called the social contract. It makes bastardized assumptions about class systems. It's an oligarchy. Supporters of government believe in in it's precepts as dogma in the same way people believe in religion.

And there's nothing dogmatic about your ideas as expressed here

And the social contract you're referring to was the basis of the entire US presidential system of government - pretty much directly out of John Locke's "Second Treatise", not to mention his work was the basis of much of the American Constitution.

i answered Dr. Will's first just because my response was meant to be dismissive, and Beefcake's because I was responding to his question with another question. I wanted my response to you to be more thoughtful Squash <3

Yah I pretty much meant a bunch of the New Deal stuff (including the moblilisation of labour for WWII), and the GI Bill. In general anything related to social security ... food stamps, etc. (although I don't know when those were introduced)

As for the question of the welfare state being associated with dependency, sure it's going to create a culture of dependency at some level, but it also creates social peace and I think this was the main motive behind introducing social security: to create social stability via the middle class. I honestly don't think that free-market capitalism will ever organically create a large middle class. The free-market left to it's own creates vast disparities between rich and poor and this is what leads to populist revolts. In this regard the welfare state is a politically pragmatic tool and not a humanistic one.

But again, if you want people to have to worry about basic survival on an everyday basis instead of going off and trying to achieve something great in the world, by all means destroy social security and any other public institutions that increase their liberty to do so. Yes, I invoked 'liberty', because a properly run welfare state increases the average individual's liberty, doesn't decrease it.

And I am out for the night!