S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)

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Warrior		#3941	[-]
Posts: 2990 (11/24/09 10:33 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Still having computer issues... My ratings came out identical to flf's with he exception of Mick. I gave him a MOR2 because he won the immunity challenge. I have never given anyone a UTR that won individual immunity and I won't start now...Oh, great minds think alike! Last Edited By: Warrior 11/24/09 1:43 PM. Edited 1 times.
wallduck		#3942	[-]
Posts: 566 (11/24/09 12:22 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Redemption arcs don't win, because the edit put them in the position to get out of that simply isn't needed. So I don't think Jaison wins Not quite sure what you mean by "because the edit put them in the position to get out of that simply isn't needed," but it seems to me that Chris had a redemption "arc." Not that I believe in arcs, but I think Jaison is an okay edgic choice. But his attitude still bothers me. It's a choice between MOR-not-quite-P Jaison and UTRP Mick, and I'll stick with Mick. (There's a campaign button for you: "I'll stick with Mick.")
astroline		#3943	[-]
Posts: 2820 (11/24/09 12:31 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Wallduck, Mick isn't UTRP. He's flat MOR. He's had 1 P episode. Seriously, could this guy BE any more of a Marcus/Amanda/Stephen redux? I thought we might have learned after those 3 past seasons, but I guess you guys keep going for the same type of edit, over and over.
cindidindi76		#3944	[-]
Posts: 20626 (11/24/09 12:34 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Something like Chris' "redemption arc" couldn't really be avoided, though. They could have easily avoided showing Jaison wanting to give up so many times. I personally don't feel that showing it once is a big deal, because we've had it before in a winner, but it seems like they showed him as a "whiner" more than they needed to. But then again, this season kind of reminds me of Gabon, in that nobody really had a great edit and there were problems with everyone. And who won that season? Bob, who never really broke any Edgic rules (not that i remember, anyways, I'm sure there will be a race to correct me if I'm wrong). And Jaison's edit is most like that. Not that he and Bob are similar characters at all.
BlakeB717		#3945	[-]
Posts: 2431 (11/24/09 2:26 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	astroline wrote: Wallduck, Mick isn't UTRP. He's flat MOR. He's had 1 P episode. Seriously, could this guy BE any more of a Marcus/Amanda/Stephen redux? I thought we might have learned after those 3 past seasons, but I guess you guys keep going for the same type of edit, over and over. For the sake of sanity, we heard you the first 17 posts. Note has been taken..
scepticA		#3946	[-]
Posts: 1819 (11/24/09 2:27 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I don't understand the idea that Chris had a redemption arc. He sucked at the first IC, that's for sure, but by the end of the episode he was fully aligned with the older guys in a group of five. He maintained a superb, low-key strategy that controlled much of his alliance. The women blew it by keeping him around because they felt he "deserved" to be there a while longer, and the female alliance crumbled. "Redemption" means overcoming your own internal fears and demons and squashing them, and by the time you are voted out you grew as a person more than as a player. Chris wasn't this at all. Look at Cirie #1 for a fine example of a redemption arc. I also am beginning to wonder if Jaison really fits the bill. He started as the surprise athlete, immediately defusing the gross stereotype about blacks and swimming, and even commented on it. Yes, he grumbled quite convincingly about how the decision to go on Survivor was the worst decision of his life, and even how he'd be ok with leaving as long as Erik goes first. But so far we don't see him backtrack on these statements. If he got some confessionals about how he is now really into the game, how the travails at the beginning made him a stronger person (not player, but person - that is a key to redemption arcs), then I can see the concept would apply to him. As of now, no.
BlakeB717		#3947	[-]
Posts: 2432 (11/24/09 2:32 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	cindidindi76 wrote: Something like Chris' "redemption arc" couldn't really be avoided, though. They could have easily avoided showing Jaison wanting to give up so many times. I personally don't feel that showing it once is a big deal, because we've had it before in a winner, but it seems like they showed him as a "whiner" more than they needed to. But then again, this season kind of reminds me of Gabon, in that nobody really had a great edit and there were problems with everyone. And who won that season? Bob, who never really broke any Edgic rules (not that i remember, anyways, I'm sure there will be a race to correct me if I'm wrong). And Jaison's edit is most like that. Not that he and Bob are similar characters at all. The major rule Bob broke was tone: He was way too P; but, he was UTR and most UTR winners don't have much variation in tone. One could say that Russell has had high-visibility Ns where Bob's were more in the 2-3 range of visibility (impact is stronger with high visbility--more in your face)/. I totally agree with Jaison. Edgically, he'd be my number 2 pick, but I don't like the content of his edit at all. His Episode 4 edit is very concerning. Also, he was UTR in E1 followed by two high-visibility ratings... something Cirie, Brendan, and Taj all had. Amanda and Dan also had the UTR E1 followed by a high visibility CP in E2. Recent winners don't peak/get introduced to us after the first episode.
wallduck		#3948	[-]
Posts: 567 (11/24/09 2:49 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	scepticA wrote: "Redemption" means overcoming your own internal fears and demons and squashing them, and by the time you are voted out you grew as a person more than as a player. Oh, okay. Luckily for me, your religion is a lot more demanding than mine. I also am beginning to wonder if Jaison really fits the bill. . . . As of now, no. Yes, even my religion says he'll have to do a lot more to achieve full redemption.
getting real		#3949	[-]
Posts: 1913 (11/24/09 2:51 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Wallduck said: (There's a campaign button for you: "I'll stick with Mick.") How about: "Mick pick is all a trick" or "Tragic Mick deserves the flick" or even "Stick the Mick pick up your wick" I think they all carry a certain amount of Mick-mystique, don't you?
RobVanStratus		#3950	[-]
Posts: 9488 (11/24/09 3:51 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	BlakeB717 wrote: astroline wrote: Wallduck, Mick isn't UTRP. He's flat MOR. He's had 1 P episode. Seriously, could this guy BE any more of a Marcus/Amanda/Stephen redux? I thought we might have learned after those 3 past seasons, but I guess you guys keep going for the same type of edit, over and over. For the sake of sanity, we heard you the first 17 posts. Note has been taken.. For the sake of sanity, we heard you the first million posts. We get it, Mick is your winner pick and he is the only option. Stop shoving your OPINION down everyone else's throats.
BlakeB717		#3951	[-]
Posts: 2433 (11/24/09 3:55 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	RobVanStratus wrote: BlakeB717 wrote: astroline wrote: Wallduck, Mick isn't UTRP. He's flat MOR. He's had 1 P episode. Seriously, could this guy BE any more of a Marcus/Amanda/Stephen redux? I thought we might have learned after those 3 past seasons, but I guess you guys keep going for the same type of edit, over and over. For the sake of sanity, we heard you the first 17 posts. Note has been taken.. For the sake of sanity, we heard you the first million posts. We get it, Mick is your winner pick and he is the only option. Stop shoving your OPINION down everyone else's throats. I've knowingly and purposely NOT spoken about that in a while, but I guess you haven't been paying attention. I've only been discussing Mick's ratings for this episode for the most part. I haven't been "shoving" anything in an irrational, repetitive way. Thanks though!
scepticA		#3952	[-]
Posts: 1820 (11/24/09 4:10 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	wallduck wrote: scepticA wrote: "Redemption" means overcoming your own internal fears and demons and squashing them, and by the time you are voted out you grew as a person more than as a player. Oh, okay. Luckily for me, your religion is a lot more demanding than mine. The tithing in my religion is a bitch. 80%. Just out of curiosity, if Cirie is the poster child for redemption arc, what does the term mean to you?
Kitty Pryde1		#3953	[-]
Posts: 10926 (11/24/09 4:24 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Jaison was HARDLY UTR in episode 1. He had two confessionals, the first about himself, offering personalization and talking about his own physical abilities, and the second talking about having lost his socks due to Russell's evil ways. He was MOR and it really felt like people were just going off visibility in terms of their rating for his that episode. Liz, I can understand getting a UTR, but Jaison started MOR. He had focus during the episode, and the sock-burning scene set him up for the "whiner" edit where we see that it's justified. Episode 4, he says that it's tough, but that could easily just be another opportunity for the editors for the editors to give us Russell's opinion on everything. Even in episode 7, when Jaison got his OTTN, we got a remarkable amount of self-reflection from him. He was beating himself up over the immunity loss rather than try to pass the blame. He got the scene out in the rain with Russell, even after we saw his pure-white ghost palms. I feel like his story early on was used to describe how tough Survivor is, in contrast to Russell, who said it was easy from day one. And I could see Jaison bringing up difficulty, or being questioned about his weakness early on, if he makes the final tribal council. But really, it doesn't look like he's getting a redemption arc.
troynuncdicit		#3954	[-]
Posts: 622 (11/24/09 4:25 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I still think it's ludicrous if Jaison gets a MOR and Mick gets a UTR when they had just about the same edits. I think both should be MOR, but I know people are gonna say "Mick's UTR cause he didn't speak as much" while they use close up camera views to justify a higher rating for other people, like Natalie for example. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
RobVanStratus		#3955	[-]
Posts: 9489 (11/24/09 4:35 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	BlakeB717 wrote: RobVanStratus wrote: BlakeB717 wrote: astroline wrote: Wallduck, Mick isn't UTRP. He's flat MOR. He's had 1 P episode. Seriously, could this guy BE any more of a Marcus/Amanda/Stephen redux? I thought we might have learned after those 3 past seasons, but I guess you guys keep going for the same type of edit, over and over. For the sake of sanity, we heard you the first 17 posts. Note has been taken.. For the sake of sanity, we heard you the first million posts. We get it, Mick is your winner pick and he is the only option. Stop shoving your OPINION down everyone else's throats. I've knowingly and purposely NOT spoken about that in a while, but I guess you haven't been paying attention. I've only been discussing Mick's ratings for this episode for the most part. I haven't been "shoving" anything in an irrational, repetitive way. Thanks though! You spent all week trying to justify giving Mick a MOR rating for the last episode and giving Jaison UTR, when they were both in the strategy scene with Monica, yet Jaison did all the talking and Mick just nodded and looked hot. This is because you know giving Mick another UTR, adding to his poor merge edit thus far, should knock him out of winner contention. You also now claim that you don't believe in the rule of having a strong merge episode, conveniently when it helps you justify your pick. You trash anyone who dares to pick someone not named Mick and then try to act holier than thou. This is the exact attitude I was talking about pre-season and in the last few seasons I've been lurking. You pick your winner and then if anyone goes against you, they are crucified. Like in Gabon, when everyone picked Marcus, then Kenny, then Matty. Each time you had a new winner, anyone that tried to justify a Crystal, Sugar, or Corinne win was attacked for daring to oppose you. Then when EVERYONE was wrong, you still tried to act better than them and say that your pick of Marcus/Kenny/Matty was a better choice, even though they all lost.
panurge46		#3956	[-]
Posts: 1551 (11/24/09 5:29 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Warrior wrote: ...Mick. I gave him a MOR2 because he won the immunity challenge. I have never given anyone a UTR that won individual immunity and I won't start now.. That's smart. I'd add that it should also apply to the star of any group challenge when there is a clear cut MVP. Natalie's challenge performance probably left a much more lasting impression to the audience than a UTR rating conveys. Don't you guys think the editors counted on that?
MasterDarkNinja		#3957	[-]
Posts: 2913 (11/24/09 6:48 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	astroline wrote: Wallduck, Mick isn't UTRP. He's flat MOR. He's had 1 P episode. Seriously, could this guy BE any more of a Marcus/Amanda/Stephen redux? I thought we might have learned after those 3 past seasons, but I guess you guys keep going for the same type of edit, over and over. Agreed that Mick definitely isn't P overall, it's actually pretty pathetic how few P overall characters we have left when someone like Mick is #2 on the list out of those not voted out (at 0.142). Mick has been static neutral for most of the season. The only person left in the game above Mick in overall tone is Natalie at 0.322. Then the only other 2 people above a 0.00 tone average are Jaison and Shambo, who have had quite a few N episodes to. Brent sits exactly at a 0.00 tone average. Then we have a bunch of Gelu's, John at -0.098, Dave at -0.161, Monica at -0.216, Laura at -0.285. And finally at the bottom we have Russell at -0.584. Have we ever had a season with the tone of everyone left so out of wack like this? Natalie is the only real P character we have left, and there's still 9 people left! Sure Jaison and Shambo get P's to, but they aren't consistently P or neutral, they consistently get N's to. I know in Exile Island we only really had Shane and Courtney as villains (or anything close to a villain) all season, but Shane was so overwhelmingly N, and provided so much entertaining footage with his N's, that it kind of explained the lack of other N characters, they weren't needed. You can't say that about the lack of P characters this season, Natalie is barely even visible, so she can't make up for the lack of other P characters.
BlakeB717		#3958	[-]
Posts: 2434 (11/24/09 7:13 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	RobVanStratus wrote: BlakeB717 wrote: RobVanStratus wrote: BlakeB717 wrote: astroline wrote: Wallduck, Mick isn't UTRP. He's flat MOR. He's had 1 P episode. Seriously, could this guy BE any more of a Marcus/Amanda/Stephen redux? I thought we might have learned after those 3 past seasons, but I guess you guys keep going for the same type of edit, over and over. For the sake of sanity, we heard you the first 17 posts. Note has been taken.. For the sake of sanity, we heard you the first million posts. We get it, Mick is your winner pick and he is the only option. Stop shoving your OPINION down everyone else's throats. I've knowingly and purposely NOT spoken about that in a while, but I guess you haven't been paying attention. I've only been discussing Mick's ratings for this episode for the most part. I haven't been "shoving" anything in an irrational, repetitive way. Thanks though! You spent all week trying to justify giving Mick a MOR rating for the last episode and giving Jaison UTR, when they were both in the strategy scene with Monica, yet Jaison did all the talking and Mick just nodded and looked hot. This is because you know giving Mick another UTR, adding to his poor merge edit thus far, should knock him out of winner contention. You also now claim that you don't believe in the rule of having a strong merge episode, conveniently when it helps you justify your pick. You trash anyone who dares to pick someone not named Mick and then try to act holier than thou. This is the exact attitude I was talking about pre-season and in the last few seasons I've been lurking. You pick your winner and then if anyone goes against you, they are crucified. Like in Gabon, when everyone picked Marcus, then Kenny, then Matty. Each time you had a new winner, anyone that tried to justify a Crystal, Sugar, or Corinne win was attacked for daring to oppose you. Then when EVERYONE was wrong, you still tried to act better than them and say that your pick of Marcus/Kenny/Matty was a better choice, even though they all lost. 1) I previously stated that MOR and UTR are pretty much the same and it doesn't affect Mick's chances whether he gets a UTR or MOR, though I believed MOR was the accurate rating this week. Thanks for paying attention! 2) I've never claimed that it is an Edgic principle. I have had no "change of heart". If it isn't on the front page, I personally don't see it as an Edgic rule-breaker. Thanks for lying! 3) I have merely explained to those supporting Natalie that it is Edgically unreasonable to pick her because of her non-existence in the first three episodes. If people challenge me on my Mick pick, I give it to them. I think that's reasonable? "This is not a normal season so let's throw Edgic out the window" is not an argument I want to hear in the Edgic thread. It doesn't make me God if I follow rules. Thanks for making it personal! 4) No one picked Bob. The only people I mocked were Sugar, Crystal, and Corinne supporters.. all who broke serious rules in either content or ratings, Edgically. Thanks for reading the first page of this thread! 5) I picked Matty? Thanks for making things up! Once again, thanks!!
OnlyTheHunter		#3959	[-]
Posts: 2074 (11/24/09 7:16 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Just to clarify for wallduck, Chris lost a challenge. But by the end of the episode, he'd already said it wasn't about challenges...we knew he could play Survivor. He was that same player at the end. The challenge performance couldn't be avoided. Chris was a consistent edit, strategic, form alliances, know what the game is about. Whereas, we didn't need to know Cirie is afraid of leaves, or Kathy started as the mom from Hell, etc. Those were editing choices that were included for characters who didn't win. That's where Jaison and John are. Why focus on John swimming in jeans, or Jaison's attitude, if they won? You as an editor have to dig them out of that. And unless it's a FTC question, why go that far? Which leads me to...challenges. This was a topic here before I started playing Edgic in Vanuatu. Straight challenge footage telling the outcome has to be shown. Mick won, for instance, you can't leave that out. You could leave out Shambo's laugh at Laura. That's an editing choice. Probst's comments, when above and beyond what we see, should be a warning. ("Earl leading his tribe, Dreamz holding his tribe back" when Earl was just a part of a group running forward.") In my notes, other than Shambo, I just saw the details of what happened, Natalie and Mick won. Neither got tons of SPV about it, saw it revisited, or had it further their characters, so I didn't use it for anything else. Panurge's question was if the editors count on the challenges leaving a lasting impression. I think if they are supposed to, then like everything else, you get more cues about it, a la talking about it after the break, SPV, etc. The editors will make sure you have an impression, not leave it to chance. Or not. :-) That's the point to ponder. I remembered more of Brett somehow breaking two tiles than anything else on first watch. I still don't know how anyone could hit three. It's the basic question, what was necessary to be shown, what is chosen to be shown, and how is what is chosen manuipulated to tell a story, reality be damned. Michael PS How did none of the cameras catch the two tiles break on Brett's throw? That's a rare miss for the crew. Last Edited By: OnlyTheHunter 11/24/09 7:33 PM. Edited 2 times.
OnlyTheHunter		#3960	[-]
Posts: 2075 (11/24/09 7:23 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Oo said Wasn't Monica seen worried about her decision to flip ? Didn't she express concern with losing her closest ally, and that is why she wanted to vote for John rather than Laura ? Did she not express this concern to Russhole ? Did she worry about losing Laura? Yes, she said it. And she spoke to Russell. The difference I saw at the time was that John also spoke to Russell, then immediately John talks about how he knows Russell is full of BS. How he sees Galu's "idiot" decisions. How he has to determine the weight of his options. He hears about the plan and is concerned how it will affect him. Monica just wasn't that deep, I didn't think. A CP? I didn't think it was the best fit, but it wasn't an awful choice. Where was her concern about the Foas not believing her, what would the outcome of the tie mean to her? Where was her worry that Russell may not be fooled? Where was her concern that John may not go along with the plan? Even an obligatory, "If I lose Laura, then how will I survive?" We never got it. It was about John changing the power balance. The complexity of the story, the weight, that was John. Michael PS to Bob - I haven't see any more light on Natalie other then sunlight shining off her bikini. I just see less light through Jaison's dirty shirt, Russell's plain boxers and Shambo's vacant headband. Mick is still golden to me. PPS fixed more typing errors, my personal assistant never took the job offer Last Edited By: OnlyTheHunter 11/24/09 7:28 PM. Edited 2 times.

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S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)