Bargaining was a dark beginning to a dark season. Not that dark is bad. Season 6 by no means is one of my favorite seasons, but I definitely appreciate it and at least it was cohesive, unlike the season that followed.

| Started By | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|
ANDand19 |
|||
|
Just read through this list. Great job so far!
Bargaining was a dark beginning to a dark season. Not that dark is bad. Season 6 by no means is one of my favorite seasons, but I definitely appreciate it and at least it was cohesive, unlike the season that followed. |
|||
myopics |
|||
|
I loved most of the darker episodes of season 6 (well, those that weren't blatantly obvious metaphors for drug abuse anyway). OMWF, Dead Things, Hell's
Bells, Normal Again and of course Bargaining were all awesome. Like I mentioned before though, part 2 is much stronger than part 1. I actually felt bored at
times with the first part. It still had quite a few strong scenes; case in point, the 2 you pointed out with Willow killing the doe and Dawn crawling into bed
with the Buffybot.
Anya was also at her funniest with this opener. Everything in part 2 was just such a great throwback to The Gift. Buffy even mentions how clear everything was the last time she was in "this spot" (Glory's tower), dispelling any doubts we may have had about her true motivations for dying in the previous season. The series was already taking a sharp turn towards dark themes in season 5, I'm glad they didn't pussy out and actually followed through. |
|||
Oaf |
|||
|
tomash wrote:
I think Bargaining is probably my favourite season opener episode(s), but It's also pretty depressing to me as I love the Buffybot so much, and it's hard to see it killedI was of course saddened to see the Buffybot go as well, but I think it's a perfect example of a character (?) who went out just in time and in a bang, saved from becoming a tiresome one-shtick joke. And you're right that it's not the staple feel-good season, but on the other hand it was boundary-breaking, and it's nearly impossible for a season to be both at the same time. Katy wrote: I had the same feeling while watching Bargaining the first time! And I too could not put my finger on it. I think it has something to do with the changes behind the scenes, like production stuff I haven't the faintest clue about, but it's just a hunch. And It's weird that you felt the move resulted in lower quality, because from what I understand, the budget actually increased in UPN. I guess it's not the money but how you use it - like Dollhouse season 2, on which Joss was quoted saying that the budget cut enabled them to shoot more creatively, and it shows. ANDand19 wrote: Thank you so much, it must have been a project to go through the entire thread. Strangely enough, I think the main problem of season 7 is that it was too cohesive, if that makes sense. It's pretty obvious that Joss and co. planned this season down to the smallest details, and then just executed it without stopping and realizing that much it simply doesn't work. myopics wrote: I found the first part really refreshing - it was like watching how the show would have been like without the lead character. I didn't wanna continue watching "People Who Aren't the Vampire Slayer", but for the one episode that it lasted, I enjoyed it. And I agree that it was a natural continuation of season 5, only more extreme, because Buffy was not only depressed about her life, but also about her death and revival. That's like taking the average's man depression and tripling it. Oh, and the clue I promised: A vamp's nest, A love's test, And a stake to the chest. |
|||
oh ehm gee |
|||
|
Is it Lover's Walk? So soon?
Oh, and Bargaining Pt. 2 is awesomeness. Favorite premiere (and in fact, third favorite S6 ep behind the obvious two) |
|||
Oaf |
|||
|
It's not "Lover's Walk", but it has a few things in common with it.... That's all I'm gonna say on the matter. |
|||
Oaf |
|||
Oaf wrote: O.K., so I lied. I'll give one more clue that should make the answer obvious: |
|||
Oaf |
|||
|
So to answer my own question-
My 51st least favorite Buffy episode of all time:
Season 5, episode 10 Written by Marty Noxon
Buffy finds out that Riley pays money to let vampires suck on his blood. She gets upset because he doesn't wanna suck on her blood, or something. Meanwhile, some military guys showed up on my screen so I fell asleep.
Before I go any further: yes, that is a chicken's foot Anya is holding up in the picture above. That's just how awesome the show we're dealing with here actually is.
So now to the less important stuff. On the surface, I should've hated this episode. It focuses solely on Riley and his relationship with Buffy - arguably the two worst storylines in the show's history. And if that's not enough, it takes itself way too seriously and doesn't go often enough to the genre-mixing the show usually excels at. But oddly, I ended up really liking this episode, despite its obvious flaws.
I think it was one thing that separated it for me from the many tear-jerking sagas that came before it and after it: Usually a relationship is going so smoothly, that the writers are starting to fear that the audience would get bored with it, and so they throw in some lame excuse to split the couple up or make life harder for them. It's not hard to think of an example: Buffy and Angel's relationship was stuff fairytales are made of, but Angel needs to head off for a show of his own, and so suddenly all the hardships that were manageable suddenly become unbearable deal-breakers. Oz and Willow were perfect for each other but Seth Green wants to pursue a movie career (we all saw how this one turned out), and so the hairy part of him suddenly becomes too hard to handle.
But this relationship was doomed in the first place. Riley was never good enough for Buffy, and Buffy never found much interest in Riley after all this Initiative phase has worn off. So instead of a good relationship having to end because of contrived reasons, we're dealing here with an excuse of a relationship that is put to rest for all the right reasons that should've prevented this relationship from happening in the first place. "Into the Woods" worked for me because while Buffy should've never hooked up with Riley, she certainly should've broken up with him, and for exactly the reasons presented here: Buffy does take Riley for granted, shutting him out and letting him in alternately, whatever's convenient for her at the moment; and Riley is inferior to Buffy and he knows it. And so it happens when neither is happy in this duo, and a separation would do good to both.
The last scene, in which Buffy chases the helicopter, I'm ambivalent about. On the one hand, I liked that it ended in the complete opposite way than expected: on any other show Buffy would've made it just in time and the screen would've faded to black on their long-awaited kiss. On the other hand, it was cheesy and, more importantly, irrelevant. Even if Buffy had caught up with Riley, they might have reconciled for the time being, but in the long haul, it would've never worked, for the same reasons they had split up in the first place. They just weren't meant to be, and not because Riley couldn't hear Buffy's voice over the helicopter's noise.
Like everybody else on this planet, I hated Riley and his storyline in season 4, but in season 5, I actually liked what they did with him: the storyline of Riley feeling he's not good enough was perfect because he is not good enough. So yeah, I should've hated this episode because it was all about Riley, but in actuality, I liked it because it was all about how Riley was a mistake in the first place. It was very satisfying in that aspect.
One other thing - watching Joyce coming out of the surgery seemingly back to normal, when we know what's to come, was heartbreaking.
Best parts: Xander's pep-talk, followed by Xander's long-awaited acknowledgment that he dates the greatest gal in history's history. I liked Buffy's hug breaking the doctor's bones as well.
Worst parts: Did we really need a "big bad" this episode, especially when this so-called big bad is a vampire who runs a whore house and a couple of his friends?
Quality Quotes:
SPIKE: (quietly) Sometimes I envy you so much it chokes me. And sometimes I think I got the better deal. (sighs) To be that close to her and not have her. To be all alone even when you're holding her. Feeling her, feeling her beneath you. Surrounding you. The scent ... (louder) No, you got the better deal.
ANYA [about a movie mentioned in the newspaper]: We have to see the chimp playing hockey! That's hilarious! The ice is so slippery, and, and monkeys are all irrational. We have to see this.
DAWN: 'Alone time' always translates into 'get Dawn out of the house so we can have loud obnoxious sex.'
Room for Debate: Do you think, had Buffy stopped Riley before he took off, that something would've changed in their dynamic, or that Riley would've still been spineless and Buffy would've still been a stuck-up distant bitch?
|
|||
ANDand19 |
|||
|
I actually hated Xander in this episode. His pep talk came out of nowhere, and he had no right to question Buffy letting Riley leave. It was one of those times
where Xander took himself too seriously and got all self righteous, and it was just so out of character. I just thought it was unnecessary and it was annoying
to watch Buffy chase after the helicopter when he was never good enough for her in the first place.
I hated Riley and his storyline, but in a way it was necessary. After the whole Angel debacle, I think the audience wanted to see Buffy with a "normal guy", and the show had to confirm that a normal guy was just not good enough for Buffy.But I think the relationship was dragged out too long, to the point where he was irrelevant in all of season 5. I would have rather seen Riley get killed in the penultimate episode of season 4, so that Buffy could mourn and get over it. |
|||
myopics |
|||
oh ehm gee wrote: Which are the obvious 2? For me, it is Once More With Feeling and Normal Again; but I know not many people are hardcore fans of the latter. Grave? |
|||
myopics |
|||
|
Though I certainly wasn't in favour of Buffy staying with Riley, their relationship never really bugged me as much as it bugged most others. I agree with
Riley's storyline improving in the 5th season. When he shed the initiative cheesiness and became "Buffy's normal boyfriend", he actually
started coming into his own and contributing both to the plot as well as Buffy's character development (she can never make a normal relationship work). I
was actually sad for Riley and rooting for him (!) earlier in the season (The Replacement?) when he so casually smiled and told Xander that Buffy meant
everything to him but he knows she doesn't love him. Even more surprising... I continued rooting for him till his character left in this episode. In
retreospect, yeah, the chase montage was a little cliche; but I was more endeared to it than 90% of the Buffy/Angel stuff in the first 3 seasons. Precisely
because Buffy/Riley were so "real" and not an over the top romantic fairy tale couple.
Into The Woods isn't really in my top 20 or so episodes, but it deserves to be in the top half of the series IMO. Buffy not arriving in time after that long montage saved it a lot. The show showed that it was aware of certain romance conventions and worked to give itself an edge. Also, it really got the audience invested in their relationship and helped to establish the season arc. In fact, this is the 2nd of many increasingly harsh blows that Buffy takes in her personal life (the first being her mother's illness), eventually leading up to her being completely overwhelmed by the final few episodes. Of sorry, forgot to add: Oaf wrote:Honestly, I have a lot of trouble imagining film characters as real people. They are always defined through the writer's intention and the specific course of events they are put through. As such, I believe it is possible to have an absolutely complete understanding of their personalities, unlike people in real life. This is only true because of the limited experiences it is possible to show a character undergoing in a film. Imagining "what ifs" always work against the understanding of characters for me. I guess if something had changed and Buffy and arrived in time, they would have definitely have made up on the spot. As for long term, I don't know. Xander identified a key flaw in their relationship and Buffy showed that she was willing to work to change it by going after Riley. I would say no, it wouldn't have worked out. Riley's feelings of inferiority would always have been an issue and Buffy's role as the slayer always has a way of hindering of all of her relationships, especially the romantic ones. As characters in a film though, I don't see how it would have been possible for it to have ended any other way from a literary viewpoint. Riley's personal arc had been on the back burner for just the right amount of time and Buffy's season storyline needed for Riley to leave so she could move on to focusing on her lone war against Glory.
Last Edited By: myopics
12/17/09 04:00 AM.
Edited 2 times.
|
|||
Oaf |
|||
|
ANDand19 wrote:
I actually hated Xander in this episode. His pep talk came out of nowhere, and he had no right to question Buffy letting Riley leave. It was one of those times where Xander took himself too seriously and got all self righteous, and it was just so out of character. I just thought it was unnecessary and it was annoying to watch Buffy chase after the helicopter when he was never good enough for her in the first place.I think the power structure in the scene with Buffy and Xander was reverse: Buffy was the one on top who dismisses everything Xander has to say at first. That's why it was a powerful scene for me: the notion that wisdom can come from places you don't necessarily take too seriously. And I also felt the opposite way about Riley's two storylines. The firstone was horrible, because it wasn't about Buffy dating a normal guy for once, but rathar about Buffy dating yet another guy with supernatural complications surrounding him. The second storyline that appeared in season 5, however, appealed to me because only then did we see how a normal guy couldn't fit in Buffy's love life. myopics wrote: I believe he's talking about OMWF and "Tabula Rasa", but I could be wrong. Though I certainly wasn't in favour of Buffy staying with Riley, their relationship never really bugged me as much as it bugged most others. I agree with Riley's storyline improving in the 5th season. When he shed the initiative cheesiness and became "Buffy's normal boyfriend", he actually started coming into his own and contributing both to the plot as well as Buffy's character development (she can never make a normal relationship work). I was actually sad for Riley and rooting for him (!) earlier in the season (The Replacement?) when he so casually smiled and told Xander that Buffy meant everything to him but he knows she doesn't love him. Even more surprising... I continued rooting for him till his character left in this episode. In retreospect, yeah, the chase montage was a little cliche; but I was more endeared to it than 90% of the Buffy/Angel stuff in the first 3 seasons. Precisely because Buffy/Riley were so "real" and not an over the top romantic fairy tale couple.I couldn't agree more. Into The Woods isn't really in my top 20 or so episodes, but it deserves to be in the top half of the series IMO. Buffy not arriving in time after that long montage saved it a lot. The show showed that it was aware of certain romance conventions and worked to give itself an edge. Also, it really got the audience invested in their relationship and helped to establish the season arc. In fact, this is the 2nd of many increasingly harsh blows that Buffy takes in her personal life (the first being her mother's illness), eventually leading up to her being completely overwhelmed by the final few episodes.Now that I think about it, I spent too much time in my write up defending this episode, thinking it needs serious defending because it revolved about not-fan-favorite Riley, so much that I forgot to explain why it isn't higher. The reason is simple: although it was very satisfying to see such needed plot development finally unfold, the episode's quality wasn't something special, mainly because it took itself too seriously and delivered melodramatic speeches left and right. "Hit me, Buffy!" and "I cried so hard I didn't think I was gonna be able to stop" are just two examples of scenes that weren't subtle or poignant enough to pull it off. I get this approach, and I partly agree, but I also feel that what seperates crappy storytelling from good storytelling (among other things) is the ability to bring your characters where you want, while at the same time make their journey true to what they are. I think that in Buffy they mostly achieved that: obviously they wanted Riley out of the way, but the character's journey towards that place felt completely natural and understandable, so much that you could get their motives, and make a pretty good guess on what they would do if the circumstances were slightly different. |
|||
myopics |
|||
Oaf wrote:Haha, oh ehm gee, which ones are they? OMWF is the only clear standout among almost all fans. If you can get past the terrible and cheap-looking opening scene (which every BTVS fan can! Lol.), Tabula Rasa was epic. Anya's most hilarious episode ever for me! Oaf wrote:"I cried so hard..." is so lame! *Sidenote: This list is awesometastic!!! It made me watch Into The Woods again. I completely forgot that Riley staked Spike through the heart! I was cringing while trying to focus on the dialogue for the remainder of the scene. Much like the Xander/Anya closing scene in Selfless, I don't remember anything they said at all because I was distracted by her gaping chest wound. Anyway, "Hit me Buffy!" started off lame but actually had a good point to make. After he lays that on her, Buffy doesn't hit Riley at all and just steps past him annoyed. That probably showed the audience as well as Riley that Buffy really does think of him as her mediocre mortal boyfriend, "not even worth it" to put it melodramatically. Random sagey Xander at the end was so... well, random! They made the right choice to have Xander be the one to speak to Buffy instead of obvious-but-actually-wrong choice Giles though. Both Xander's speech and the Buffy/Riley dialogue in the training room felt contrived; but after I thought about it, everything in the script needed to be said. Sure they didn't come up with a super amazing way to express it (like a musical! haha), but all the dialogue was handled competently enough. By the way, any clues for the next episode, Oafie? |
|||
Oaf |
|||
|
The absurdity of writing this kind of list is my constant complaining of what could've been done better (like the dialogues in this episode) combined with my own lack of talent and incapability to write anything that's half as good as the stuff they did end up using. So I have no idea what I would've done to make it better, and I certainly couldn't have written something remotely as good, but goddamit, even I could write something better! (Do you see the what I'm saying?) And the clue for the next entry: Flunking class? Kicking ass? Too much mess, I think I'll pass. |
|||
myopics |
|||
|
Lol, I understand completely! Please let it be known that for all my mouthing off, I can't come up with a specific better alternative for 90% of the stuff
I criticise. Still love the show to death though! <3
As for the riddle. I have no clue! Lol, that could be quite a few episodes. Uhh... it sounds like someone is asked to lead the life of a scooby (a student and a slayette) but chooses not to. I'll take a wild stab at it and guess Welcome To The Hellmouth. |
|||
Oaf |
|||
|
Well, if it helps, it comes from Buffy's PoV. |
|||
Oaf |
|||
|
I'm posting the next write-up in about an hour (after it got erased from my computer and I had to recreate it Flunking class? Kicking ass? Too much mess, I think I'll pass. Oh, hello there, Wes! |
|||
Oaf |
|||
|
My 51st favorite Buffy episode of all time:
Season 3, episode 14 Written by Douglas Petrie
Faith shows Buffy how to have fun, but when she suggests that they're above the law, Buffy protests strongly. Boy, she should've met herself four years later.
In my write-up about "Consequences", I said that it was the turning point of season 3. If that is so, then "Bad Girls" is the ground on which the turning takes place. It's in here that Buffy gets what it's like to live with the pleasures of slayage but without the responsibility, and it's here that Faith makes it clear that she has no intention of ever looking at it as anything but as a power she can use to get what she wants. This is without a doubt great material to explore, but my question is: why explore it over the course of a single episode, and stop there?
Don't get me wrong, this episode is made of win. The introduction of Wesley, one of the most unintentionally hilarious characters in the show's history (and that's without mentioning his stint on 'Angel'); Buffy's short period as a careless impulsive slut; the Mayor's interaction with the boy scouts and him putting a check mark next to "Become Invincible"; Willow adorably feeling left out of the slayer clique; the different responses of Giles and Wesley to being trapped by Balthezar ("thank god you're here, I was planning to panic", "But I'd like to have my kneecaps!"); these were all priceless moments.
I'm not denying this episode of its greatness. But it shouldn't have been one episode in the first place: it was a tactic mistake to squeeze the heart of season 3 into such a tiny part of the season. I'm aware that they've sort of explored the "what if a slayer went on a power trip" scenario with Faith, but it's not the same as exploring it with the lead character, and no, dancing at the Bronze and stealing a weapon is not enough of an exploration. If I were in charge of that season, I would've made it a multi-episode arc before Buffy and Faith part ways. If you need proof that this kind of plot could kick major ass, just watch 'Angel' season 2. You know what, even if you don't need proof, just watch 'Angel' season 2. Trust me on this one.
And on top of the decision to shove it all into one hour of television, they throw in Balthezar as well. Like I said in the last write-up, not every episode needs a big bad, especially an episode in which the Mayor becomes invincible and Faith gets introduced as the real big bad of season 3. But even if they do decide to throw in a baddie, why does it need to be a huge veiny chunk of fat sitting in a Jacuzzi? It was a complete waste of time, and they didn't have a lot of time to waste to begin with. The only explanation I could think of is that they wanted to add insight from someone who knew the Mayor back in the day, but it could've been done much more smoothly and to the point.
With all that being said, I did like "Bad Girls" a lot, as evidenced by how many good episodes it bypassed. My problem with it doesn't have to do with what was shown in the episode; it has everything to do with what could've been, given the potential it presented.
Best part: Faith's "screw that" upon meeting her new watcher
Worst parts:everything having to do with Balthazar and his minions from the middle ages.
Quality Quotes:
Room for Debate: considering all the life a slayer saves, does she really need to give herself in to the authorities once a mistake happens, which would prevent her from saving countless other lives?
|
|||
myopics |
|||
|
Damn it! I swear on my eternal burning love of BTVS that Bad Girls was my very next guess!
I agree, it was very hard to go wrong with Bad Girls because the plot material was so strong. They executed excellent material in a moderately good way, which makes the episode average a very good! Lol. As for the debate, I would say that Buffy did the right thing by confessing. Something that she stands up for again in Dead Things. Yeah, the slayer would be responsible for saving tens, maybe even hundreds of lives; in the short term, one accidental kill doesn't seem to be that steep a price to pay. This is where things get tricky though. What kind of message would a slayer be sending out if she brushes off a murder she has committed just like that. It is the wrong mindset to have and will eventually lead to a society of overturned morals. Don't forget, a slayer turning herself in doesn't mean she is throwing her entire life away. It just means that she acknowledges that she, too, is subject to society's laws. The courts may very well give her a reduced sentence because of the accidental nature of the killing. After which, she can carry on with her duties as the slayer if she pleases. |
|||
Oaf |
|||
|
I think that because slayerhood is such a secret, and because the authoroties would probably not understand the situation, it's a tough situation to face. A relevant quote from "Consequences": GILES: Buffy, this is not the first time something like this has happened. BUFFY: It's not? GILES: The Slayer is on the front line of a nightly war. Now, it's, it's tragic, but accidents have happened. BUFFY: W-what do you do? GILES: Well, the Council investigates, um, metes out punishment if punishment is due. But I... I have no plans to involve them. I mean, it's the last thing Faith needs at the moment. She's unstable, Buffy. I mean, she's utterly unable to accept responsibility. That makes sense, because a slayer is a lot like a soldier. casualties of war are different than murder victims. There are circumstances to be considered that the normal law system just doesn't have the tools to understand. That's why it's good to have an organization like the watcher's council, that understands what's at stake here (lame pun not intended). That's probably the only example where the council could be considered to be any good at anything at all. |
|||
Katy Carney |
|||
|
I LOVED Bad Girls, but I do agree that it could've been an entire story arc. Pretty much anything involving Faith has my seal of approval tho. I think it
would've been a bit higher for me.
|
|||