S-19 Edgic (editing and logic) in Survivor Speculation Forum

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S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)

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Oowatanite		#5801	[-]
Posts: 9852 (12/21/09 06:35 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	The spontaneous rally will begin at 1:45. Remove this ad unduli clone wrote: The one time INV was useful was in Guatemala, as Oo said, but other than that it's pretty much been a non-factor in eliminating players who were golden otherwise. Au contraire, mon ami. The INV has been used lots of times to eliminate players. Rafe's example is a standout since he had a good edit until he received the INV after the merge. But even this season, INVs in Ep 2 eliminated Swan and Erik who otherwise could not be eliminated edgically until they got booted. Similarly, INVs in Ep 4 eliminated Ashley and Liz. And in Gabon, Ace and Sugar and Charlie and Corinne were all eliminated by INVs.
BlakeB717		#5802	[-]
Posts: 2791 (12/21/09 06:35 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Amber and Nat's pre-merge and merges compared, alongside their two 2nd place distracters. Last Edited By: BlakeB717 12/21/09 06:42 PM. Edited 2 times.
Jedijake		#5803	[-]
Posts: 6062 (12/21/09 06:55 PM) MESS member Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Tradition is great, but perhaps as things go, Edgic needs to change. Perhaps there finally needs to be a more profound blending of the numbers with the story. Right now there are two or more threads dealing with stories and one with Edgic. The big question is, now with the altered state of things, how do we effectively combine the two? Flexibility is one issue. Story and editing has caused contradiction and scrambling this season. Flexibility allows wiggle room between the two. The INV has always been something that bothers me. INV pre-merge is the same as INV post-merge. It is what it is-invisible. If you say something, you're not INV. I've always said that a person with INV needs to be out of sight and out of mind (like Liliana in Fiji). INV used to be a a kiss of death. For some, it has transitioned into a way of eliminating someone. Now that is no longer the case. We have to be VERY careful, if Edgic will continue to survive, not to throw around INV's to people who actually do say something in the background or are shown. INV can still exist. It's just that the UTR1 rating will become MUCH more prevalent now. Hate to say it, but Natalie's win will change the way we will look at the game of Survivor. It has no choice. Last Edited By: Jedijake 12/21/09 07:02 PM. Edited 1 times.
cantthinkofaname		#5804	[-]
Posts: 1652 (12/21/09 07:02 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Oowatanite wrote: unduli clone wrote: The one time INV was useful was in Guatemala, as Oo said, but other than that it's pretty much been a non-factor in eliminating players who were golden otherwise. Au contraire, mon ami. The INV has been used lots of times to eliminate players. Rafe's example is a standout since he had a good edit until he received the INV after the merge. But even this season, INVs in Ep 2 eliminated Swan and Erik who otherwise could not be eliminated edgically until they got booted. Similarly, INVs in Ep 4 eliminated Ashley and Liz. And in Gabon, Ace and Sugar and Charlie and Corinne were all eliminated by INVs. Rafe's INV was in episode 5
Jedijake		#5805	[-]
Posts: 6064 (12/21/09 07:35 PM) MESS member Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Possibly an even bigger question than "where does Edgic go from here" is "where does Survivor go from here?". With the casting problems we've seen since All Stars, when there is a HUGE player and he loses, it shows that it does not pay to play on the front line. Does Natalie's win relay a message that it's okay for everyone to play under the radar? If so, what are we in for?
Battlekid		#5806	[-]
Posts: 995 (12/21/09 07:46 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Okay Hippo, I expect you to dissapear until next season. Sorry. Jamie cat, get your Natalie av. A deal is a deal. Blake, seriously you were completley irresponsible this season with your Mick love. Try not to mix personal and logic next time.
getting real		#5807	[-]
Posts: 2009 (12/21/09 07:52 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Jedijake wrote: Possibly an even bigger question than "where does Edgic go from here" is "where does Survivor go from here?". With the casting problems we've seen since All Stars, when there is a HUGE player and he loses, it shows that it does not pay to play on the front line. Does Natalie's win relay a message that it's okay for everyone to play under the radar? If so, what are we in for? That's an easy one to answer. Whatever the casting (sometimes in spite of it), human nature and luck will always insert their own impoderables. Can you honestly deny that every post All-Stars series has developed in tangents and ways that could not have possibly been predicted? Look at the last two seasons. JT eliminates Timbira one by one and they adore him for it. Russell does the same and they tear him to shreds. Is the greater factor the nature of the perpetrator or the nature of his victims? That's the fascination, that's why we'll always keep watching.
scepticA		#5808	[-]
Posts: 1870 (12/21/09 08:15 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	The fact that RH was so huge in the edit was entirely the choice of the editors. They thought they had Nielson gold with him, and so ignored the other tribe, and made it seem like he was 100% in control. The fact that so many were shocked that the "best playa eva" lost huge is 100% the fault of the editors. Even if many take the cue from Nat on how to play the game, it is still up to the editors to make the story compelling. In Africa, for instance, the torpor of their horrible existence was the big thing to their day. Yet the editors managed to make it a good editing season thanks to understanding of good story arcs, strategic brilliance and blunders, and making the most of what EVERY player gave the cameras. Not just two. I think the one thing that would have helped the editors (or, rather, forced them) to be more equitable in their allotment of airtime was if Galu had lost a time or two. that surely didn't help. Re the difference between JT's plotting and RH's: One understood the concept of social game. The other didn't have a clue. In some ways, RH is one of the most clueless players ever despite his strategic street smarts. He had no idea that interpersonal relationships would matter one iota.
BlakeB717		#5809	[-]
Posts: 2792 (12/21/09 08:22 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Battlekid wrote: Okay Hippo, I expect you to dissapear until next season. Sorry. Jamie cat, get your Natalie av. A deal is a deal. Blake, seriously you were completley irresponsible this season with your Mick love. Try not to mix personal and logic next time. Uh-Oh. Issue you me an EUI, officer. Edgic under the influence. How irresponsible of me! Except... I didn't love Mick (at all, actually--what a bore). Super happy to see my girl Nat win. Just... not very happy for the future of Edgic. Go away, please, unless you know what you're talking about.
chapera rocks		#5810	[-]
Posts: 12320 (12/21/09 08:29 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	The spontaneous rally will begin at 1:45. Remove this ad BlakeB717 wrote: Battlekid wrote: Okay Hippo, I expect you to dissapear until next season. Sorry. Jamie cat, get your Natalie av. A deal is a deal. Blake, seriously you were completley irresponsible this season with your Mick love. Try not to mix personal and logic next time. Uh-Oh. Issue you me an EUI, officer. Edgic under the influence. How irresponsible of me! Except... I didn't love Mick (at all, actually--what a bore). Super happy to see my girl Nat win. Just... not very happy for the future of Edgic. Go away, please, unless you know what you're talking about. To be fair, what is he supposed to think? You've given Mick a 10 pretty much every week in the popularity poll, and have been giving Natalie 2-3's for weeks now (discounting the finale). It's like Russ telling everyone he doesn't make much money and then laughing that they're stupid behind their back ... how the fuck would they know?
JaimeCat22		#5811	[-]
Posts: 496 (12/21/09 08:40 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	FallenTorch wrote: A lot of the analysis going on following Nat's win has been spot on. One thing I am disappointed in upon reading this thread are the many posters who find it necessary to simply pop in in in order to proclaim the demise of Edgic or to insult Blake. We got it. Blake was wrong. I don't know the guy at all, but come on. People who are just attacking him need to realize that you just all look like a bunch of hypocrites for ganging up on a guy who made a decision and stood by it. If he read spoilers, great for him. For those of you who don't read spoilers, if his sudden interest in Mick didn't make sense, then ignore it. I didn't read spoilers, but clearly Natalie and Russell had the most ties to the endgame. And premerge Mick's edit was by far the most typical of previous winners. Therefore support for these three players has nothing to do with so and so being spoiled, but rather the fact that they did look like they had a shot in such a bizarre season as this one. For the Jaison supporters, his redemption arc is the reason I discounted him. He was our Cirie or our Kathy V, or even our Erinn. He wasn't going to win but was rather going through personal growth. And we picked up on that. That's why he wasn't supported. Looking at the simple ratings and nothing beyond that, he might've had a shot, but his tone was all over the place, and logically it made NO sense for him to win. Where were his ties to the end? He had none. That along with the stubborness of most people to retain their origanal pick long after that pick's lost all viability is why he wasn't chosen (heck I'm guilty of it after Mick's UTR merge episodes). Not because of spoilers. As for the downfall of Edgic, anyone proclaiming this, why don't you just kindly remove yourself from this thread? If you don't have anything constructive, don't say it at all. Although some of you like Jamiecat seem to believe the whole of Sucks and edgic revolves around your opinions, it doesn't. Why this thread has to be shut down because you see no need for it makes no sense. If you don't agree with it, just don't post here. I'm not sure why that's too hard to understand. Still, what I am in agreement with is the idea that we need to consider Editing with the Story. Which we have been. There's no one here who looks directly at the numbers and not at the story. To do that would not only be dumb, it would go against Edgic to begin with. Although this thread isn't entirely thematic like panurge's, the combination of such would have predicted our winner this season. So rather then lose hope, let's just keep at it. What have we got to lose? Nothing. It's not like we're getting graded or paid for our work here. We do this for fun, and if people can't deal with being a little wrong sometimes, then this isn't the place for them. Edgic never said it was perfect. And that's what makes it fun to take part in. Because of the debates and arguments for one player over one another. So despite the spoilage next season, Edgic is not over with. If people only do this to get a pick right and shove it in someone's face, then this isn't the place for them. I'm fine with being wrong. I was wrong this seasons, and I'll likely be wrong in the future. But I'd like to try to figure it out. It's all a puzzle. And that's what we do in Edgic. We solve the editing puzzle- no matter how twisted and contorted and unorthodox it may seem. Zzzzz....
getting real		#5812	[-]
Posts: 2010 (12/21/09 09:32 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Re the difference between JT's plotting and RH's: One understood the concept of social game. The other didn't have a clue. In some ways, RH is one of the most clueless players ever despite his strategic street smarts. He had no idea that interpersonal relationships would matter one iota. Granted. But how do you think JT would have fared with this jury rather than the one he had? Even allowing for his superior social skills. Re. Russell's editing dominance, I agree that the it would have made for much better viewing if Galu had got more development. But if the story they wanted to show was that, in the face of arrogance and meanness, the 'meek shall inherit the earth', the way they did it was justifiable. To set up his fall, they had to set him up big .. bigger than they've ever set up anyone.
BlakeB717		#5813	[-]
Posts: 2793 (12/21/09 09:34 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I think I've explained plenty of times my 10s for Mick in the poll. It has nothing to do with any "love". I have always been edgically unbiased, and many here can agree.
darknight		#5814	[-]
Posts: 33 (12/21/09 09:38 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	BlakeB717 wrote: I think I've explained plenty of times my 10s for Mick in the poll. It has nothing to do with any "love". I have always been edgically unbiased, and many here can agree. Does that include when i posted Mikc had zero jury connections you claimed Erik was a jury connection for Mick and because Erik thought Russell S was a good leader he would therefore vote Mick because mick was also a leader....a bad one of a rival tribe?
cindidindi76		#5815	[-]
Posts: 21022 (12/21/09 09:43 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Blake, could you please go back through this thread and make an index of every single post you made this season and let us know the time and date of each post and tell us all your thoughts at the time you made that post so that I can question everything you posted all season long and make sure you know you were WRONG WRONG WRONG?
MasterDarkNinja		#5816	[-]
Posts: 2971 (12/21/09 09:48 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts	I mentioned I'd post this after the season was over, I really think one thing we ought to do is make a guideline about the 'correct' tribe for the winner to be on. I mean seriously, we all knew after 1 or 2 episodes that no one from Gelu was winning, we need to express that in the guidelines, it would have helped us spot Bob as the winner if we realized everyone else was on the wrong tribe given Fang's horrible tribe edit. I'm kind of wordy, so maybe someone can simplify this in a better way, but here's what I wrote up a few days ago to explain which tribe the winner will be on. The Incorrect Tribe Rule The incorrect tribe rule points to which tribes are unlikely to contain the winner, so that we can find the correct tribes where the winner is more likely to be. The reason for looking for 'incorrect' tribes instead of correct tribes is because the edits of losing tribes are more consistent throughout the seasons then the edits of winning tribes. 1) Incorrect tribes tend to be the more N tribe, and often have the entire tribe painted in a N light, often through Jeff Probst commentary in the recaps (such as his constant N commentary of Fang in recaps), or a P character on the N tribe saying bad things that apply to the rest of their tribe (such as Shambo saying her tribe is so laidback they're lazy because they prioritize Yoga over working around camp). 2) Incorrect tribes tend to be shown as incompetent and stupid, either as individuals, or the tribe as a whole. Jeff may emphasize in the recap that the tribe keeps making the wrong decisions (such as how Fang voting out Jacquie after she did well in the IC was shown as the wrong decision). 3) Incorrect tribes tend to be shown as the lazy/lazier tribe. They tend to have someone on their tribe calling their whole tribe lazy, with imagery reinforcing it (such as Peih Gee saying her tribe was a bunch of lazy people who just wanted to party instead of work). 4) Incorrect tribes may be extremely neglected in the early episodes, even if they make up a majority of the people in the merge (see Moto in Fiji, and Gelu in Samoa) The tribe with the winner however may get a lot less airtime, but it'll be less of an extreme imbalance. Just because someone is separated from all the N aspects of their tribe (as one or two people on that tribe frequently are) that doesn't make them any more likely to win then the rest of their tribe. Terry Deitz may have been separated from the incompetence of his La Mina tribe, and shown as the only one able to get stuff done at their camp, but Terry Deitz still didn't win the game. Just keep in mind that not all losing tribes will meet all of these guidelines. At times it may even be impossible to tell which tribe is the incorrect tribe. None of these rules are going to be 100% accurate on their own all the time, it's only when you see 3 or 4 of them together on the same tribe that they become very bad news for everyone on that tribe. Also the winner's tribe can seem to meet some guidelines for the incorrect tribe at times, for example Casaya was the N tribe in S12, but at the same time their opponents were the totally incompetent La Minas who were shown to fail at even the most simple tasks without their leader Terry around.
guatemala fanfic		#5817	[-]
Posts: 5555 (12/21/09 10:04 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	Interesting concept. That sounds good, MDN! It seems pretty concise and well put together too. Of course it goes hand-in-hand with the complex tribe, like Foa Foa, which is more likely to contain the winner (although complex tribe is harder to define).
BlakeB717		#5818	[-]
Posts: 2794 (12/21/09 10:11 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	cindidindi76 wrote: Blake, could you please go back through this thread and make an index of every single post you made this season and let us know the time and date of each post and tell us all your thoughts at the time you made that post so that I can question everything you posted all season long and make sure you know you were WRONG WRONG WRONG? We only have a few more ghosties to make their rounds on my wrongess cind, hang in there.
HagridOfTheDeep		#5819	[-]
Posts: 9 (12/21/09 10:21 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts	These are the Edgic guidelines I will be using for myself in the future. I don't usually post here, but I hope to become a bit more active. Use these if you're interested, discuss amendments to them... Whatever. I've eliminated some of the guidelines that I think have lost their relevance and added things that I think need to be accounted for. 1. The winner will typically have a meaningful edit that frequently entices some kind of audience response. The winner's edit will contribute to a season-long 'theme' that can often be identified before the merge. 2. The winner may be given scenes that could have otherwise been included in a recap episode. This will be done to justify their worthiness as a competitor. 3. If the season is about 'how person x wins,' the winner may have ups and downs, but will typically not be too UTR/INV or too OTT. 4. A season about 'how person x wins' may depict 'person x' as highly visible and/or OTT. He or she will be edited consistently in tone, shown making strategic moves that advance the season's story. These winners will be entertaining and often entice a big audience reaction, thereby justifying his or her high visibility. 5. If the season is about 'how person x lost,' the winner will likely have low visibility. This low visibility can be attributed to the presence of high visibility strategic villains and/or 'entertainment gold' competitors. The winner's edit should still further the story of the season. 6. Over the course of the game the winner's presence and visibility should end up closer to the average of all the players. (The winner typically gravitates to near the top in MOR differential, which calculates the closeness to average in presence, tone and ratings). 7. Typically the winner is surrounded by players who keep our focus to distract us from the winner. These players are often OTT and much of the complexity and strategy centers in this core group. This core group can be a combination of members of more than one complex group, rather than all being from one, original tribe. 8. The winner will have substantial comments/insight from many of the jury members that may resurface in front of the jury or mislead the audience on voting. 9. The ending is typically set up to be a somewhat of a 'surprise'. You either don't expect the winner or second place to be there. These two are often manipulated in the editing to make each look like they have a chance to win.
BlakeB717		#5820	[-]
Posts: 2795 (12/21/09 10:29 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts	The spontaneous rally will begin at 1:45. Remove this ad I think the problem with some of these are that it's more like a guideline to why Natalie won, but the same things don't necessarily apply to Danni, Bob, Vecepia, Amber, etc entirely.

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S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)

The Incorrect Tribe Rule