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chapera rocks wrote:

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When did Lex and Kathy say that Amber convinced them? I remember there was an argument about this a while ago, but I don't think anyone found any proof.

It's called interviews, which I read. And I know I recall correctly.

I don't think Tom or Lex wanted to vote for Amber as much as against Rob. At least five people (Brett, Kelly, Laura, Erik, Monica) were happy to write to down Natalie's name as the winner. Even if Dave and Jaison were just voting against Russell, what made them choose Natalie over Mick?

Look at Laura's jury interview; she didn't want to vote for any of them. No one's denying Natalie had a good social game, and she never screwed anyone over like Amber did. It's her strategic game that was minimal.

Does it really matter why Jenna wanted to vote Amber out? Jenna knew who she could beat in the end, and she wasn't going to risk that because she was mad at him. Nobody wanted to vote Natalie out. The only time they did vote for her was when they knew she would be immune after a tie vote.

It does matter when you're saying Amber didn't bond with Jenna. There's a completely different reason for voting out Amber than you presented. And why the fuck would I take what you say over what Jenna herself said? Rob was pissing her off, meaning he didn't do a good job talking to her. No one wanted to vote Natalie out because she played like a dead possum.

I never said Amber wanted to keep Tom. I said she wanted to keep Lex and Kathy. That was the only time they disagreed, and Rob got what he wanted. He wasn't throwing away his game by making deals to keep her. He was doing what he could to keep the one person he needed to the end. You're right about Russell not doing that for Natalie, but that's why she took things into her own hands. It was part of her strategy to do what he wanted her to do as long as it was in her best interest, but she was ready for whateer he was or wasn't doing that was not in her best interest. When Jaison was going home and Russell wasn't doing anything about it, she got Erik set home. When Russell was Galu's target to go home, Natalie had a deal with the girls so that she could've gone to the end with them if Russell did go home. She talked about this in a video on cbs.com.

Then maybe you should be careful what you type, because you did say that Amber disagreed with Rob those two times. Rob got what he wanted ... you're acting like this conversation represents their entire 39 days. And Natalie never took things into her own hands, what are you on crack? Her strategy was to let Russell take the hits while she built social relationships. That's not taking things into her own hands in the slightest. Which video? Just because you say Natalie was ready to go behind Russell's back if anything didn't benefit her doesn't mean she would have. She's never said that. She was loyal to Russ. Russ knew this, so he kept her.

Rob was the target ahead of Amber, but if one of the other players was able to turn people against them, and Rob had immunity, it would be against Amber. That's why Lex voted for Amber in the top 9 instead of Rob, because Rob had immunity. By Natalie leaving it open as to whether or not she was really that loyal to Russell, she was never targeted to go home, other than the one where they knew she would've been immune after the tie vote.

You're more retarded than I thought if you think Natalie "left it open" regarding her loyalty to Russell. EVERYONE knew where her loyalties were and no one tried to sway her because of it. Monica has said this. John. Mick. Jaison. Shamu. Brett didn't even try to sway Natalie because he knew she wouldn't budge.

Jenna might've wanted to vote Rob out for personal reasons, but she did listen to the logic he was telling her, and she based her vote for Rupert on that. She chose logic over personal feelings, which is also why she said she would've taken Rob to the end. Also, there's no way to know what would've happened if Rob didn't convince her to vote out Rupert. If either Rob or Jenna went home due to a rock in the final 4, Rupert could've won and voted Amber out at 3, but Rob stopped that from happening. If Amber had it her way, she wouldn't have even been there with Jenna, and Lex and Kathy could easily have gotten her out at 3 or 4, or even turned on her before then.

For the last fucking time, Rob didn't convince Jenna to do anything. All I hear in this is "if, if, if" and they don't even make sense.

Amber may have had personal connections to keep herself in the game, but so did Natalie. The difference is that Natalie had already set it up for herself ahead of time. She talked about her deal with Kelly, Laura, and Monica on cbs.com, and she also said she was working on Dave. Like I said, Amber is good, but I think Natalie had a much more strategic mind, and played a better social game. She even won with a final 3. If Amber had Jenna in the final 3 at FTC, she wouldn't have been able to rely on bitterness, and Lex, Tom, Rupert, and Alicia would've all voted for Jenna.

Again, acting like you know shit that's never been confirmed. Tom hated Jenna. Alicia HATED Jenna. You have no idea how they'd vote in a final three. Which doesn't even matter, because there was no assumption of a final three when Romber was playing, it would have been a completely different game. Amber and Rob set themselves up ahead of time; that's what forming two different final 4 deals within a group of 6 is called.

If you want to do Natalie a favor, don't argue on her behalf; leave it to someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

You're talking a lot about interviews, but not mentioning any links or anything. Laura was friends with Natalie, so she would have no problem voting for her.

You're also changing what I said to give yourself points to argue with. I did say Amber had a bond with Jenna, and I'm not positive, but I don't think I ever said Amber wanted to take Big Tom to the end.

Natalie did have a deal behind Russell's back. It was with the girls. She also took things into her own hands with Erik. Russell wasn't doing anything about Jaison leaving. He tried with Laura, but she won immunity. That's when Natalie had to do things for herself. If she didn't take Erik out, Foa Foa would've been Pagonged. And that conversations about choosing Lex and Kathy or Rupert and Jenna could very well have affected the whole outcome of the game. Rob's way got Amber to the win. Amber's way may have, but with Shii Ann and Big Tom as extra allies of Lex and Kathy, it's not likely.

The point of Natalie leaing it open only happened when she picked Brett for the challenge, and it did make people question her loyalties. Shambo and Jaison both talked about how Natalie and Brett might've had a deal, but Natalie still let Russell know she was really with him. The purpose was to not have Shambo or Brett try to flip someone like Jaison or Mick, and the top 6 was the perfect time to do that when Brett won immunity, but they didn't, so it worked. That's not saying it would've happened if they didn't do that, but it's good to be sure.

Rob did convince Jenna to vote out Rupert. Every point she made as to why she voted out Rupert, was all stuff Rob was saying. Before that, she planned on it being a tie.

Giving Amber credit for the deals with Lex, with Big Tom, and with Rupert and Jenna is like giving Natalie credit for having a deal with John and Shambo, meaning that it was her ally who did it, not her. Amber may have made a deal with Kathy, but that's the only thing she did on her own. Natalie had a deal with the girls, and was the one who observed the cracks in her tribe, and knew who was aligned with who. That's how they knew who to turn to to take out Erik. Why are the interviews you read about Amber accurate, but not the ones I read about Natalie?

chapera rocks wrote:

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Laura even says that Natalie could vote with them. Natalie had a plan B.

Fair point, but who's to say Amber didn't? She wasn't going to roll over and die because Rob goes home.

If Russell hadn't found his second idol, there's a good chance that Natalie winds up with Laura. The F10 would likely have been Laura, Monica, Kelly, Brett, Natalie and Dave forming an alliance with John, Shambo, Jaison and Mick being isolated.

I agree that could definitely have happened, it was just never articulated. I've said that I felt Natalie was the only Fa Foa that could have "made it" had Galu retained their advantage, but to use that as concrete evidence that she's a better player is ridiculous. Amber's social game could have easily allowed her to also integrate into Mogo Mogo. Especially by using Shii-Ann. It's all speculative.

I'm not a fan of Romber but don't hate them either. However, when analyzing their game you have to consider the relationships, the alliance, that Rob, Lex, Kathy and Tom had prior to the game. The game is easier when you control the numbers on both tribes. That's what made ASS so terrible to watch.

All this to say: Amber never saves herself at F10 if Lex and Kathy didn't know her and Rob before the game started.

And? The fact is you play with the cards your dealt. You really can't say it for certain either way, so you have to use what we know. Amber saved herself. That is hard to do. Did she use her alliance with Rob as leverage? Yep. Does that make it any less of an accomplishment? Nope. If anything, it made it harder because of Lex's strong relationship with Jerri outside the game.

You're talking a lot about interviews, but not mentioning any links or anything. Laura was friends with Natalie, so she would have no problem voting for her.

Do you expect me to go back to find interviews 6 years old to prove something to you? Go look them up. ASS is my favourite season, Amber my favourite player. Things like that stick out and are remembered. If you want supporting evidence from the show, just look at how pissed off Kathy was towards Amber. "You lied to me about final 6 and I just don't like getting lied to that big."

You're also changing what I said to give yourself points to argue with. I did say Amber had a bond with Jenna, and I'm not positive, but I don't think I ever said Amber wanted to take Big Tom to the end.

You said Amber didn't bond with Jenna and that is why Jenna was going to vote her out at 4. Wrong.

Natalie did have a deal behind Russell's back. It was with the girls. She also took things into her own hands with Erik. Russell wasn't doing anything about Jaison leaving. He tried with Laura, but she won immunity. That's when Natalie had to do things for herself. If she didn't take Erik out, Foa Foa would've been Pagonged. And that conversations about choosing Lex and Kathy or Rupert and Jenna could very well have affected the whole outcome of the game. Rob's way got Amber to the win. Amber's way may have, but with Shii Ann and Big Tom as extra allies of Lex and Kathy, it's not likely.

Natalie had something in the works with the girls in case Russell was taken out. She was never, ever, ever, ever going against Russell. Nat did a great job getting Erik out. Amber did a great job saving herself in an impossible situation. And guess what? It's called talking things through. A 30 second clip of Rob and Amber discussing the vote does not mean that is what Amber wanted ultimately. That's why they were having a discussion.

The point of Natalie leaing it open only happened when she picked Brett for the challenge, and it did make people question her loyalties. Shambo and Jaison both talked about how Natalie and Brett might've had a deal, but Natalie still let Russell know she was really with him. The purpose was to not have Shambo or Brett try to flip someone like Jaison or Mick, and the top 6 was the perfect time to do that when Brett won immunity, but they didn't, so it worked. That's not saying it would've happened if they didn't do that, but it's good to be sure.

No. Natalie's rational for picking Brett was good, but you're kidding yourself if you think it was to make herself seem "more open". No, everyone and their mother knew where Natalie's loyalties lied, and 10 seconds of expressed doubt shown for dramatic effect does not negate that.

Rob did convince Jenna to vote out Rupert. Every point she made as to why she voted out Rupert, was all stuff Rob was saying. Before that, she planned on it being a tie.

No, he fucking didn't. It doesn't take a genius to think that picking a rock is a dumb idea at final 4. Those things Rob said, Amber said also. Does that mean Amber convinced her? No. It's possibly the easiest fucking decision she could have made, a monkey could have done the same thing.

Giving Amber credit for the deals with Lex, with Big Tom, and with Rupert and Jenna is like giving Natalie credit for having a deal with John and Shambo, meaning that it was her ally who did it, not her. Amber may have made a deal with Kathy, but that's the only thing she did on her own. Natalie had a deal with the girls, and was the one who observed the cracks in her tribe, and knew who was aligned with who. That's how they knew who to turn to to take out Erik. Why are the interviews you read about Amber accurate, but not the ones I read about Natalie?

Amber gets credit for dealing with Kathy. We don't know the moment Big Tom was brought into the fold. And we saw Amber right there when the deal was brokered with Rupert and Jenna. And Amber's deal with Kathy was the biggest move of the game because it saved her and cinched Chapera's advantage.

Natalie getting out Erik was the biggest move in her game, because it was what saved her whole alliance, just like Amber's deal with Kathy saved her. The difference is that Natalie was able to work something up with the girls without giving her word, which was something Amber didn't do. That lost her one vote, ad in addition to the two she already didn't have, almost the game. Natalie made a deal that Russell was't a part of, and by not solidifying it, she kept those three votes.

I said Jenna wanted Amber out at 3, and I don't think I said a reason, even though the reason was that she could beat Rob.

Natalie did not ever plan to go against Russell, but that does't mean she was't ready for him to go home. She knew if she got along with the jurors that she could beat Russell, and it was another strategic move for her to let Russell think that everyone will vote for him in the end.

If the reason Natalie wasn't targeted really was because she was stupid, or a bad player, then that's another brilliat strategy she had, because she planned to let everyone think she was stupid. Obviously, they were wrong to not go after, since she ended up winning the whole game.

I respect your opinion, and I have mine. I don't think it's possible to win without making at least one brilliant strategic move. You said that Natalie deserved to beat Russell because she played a better social game, ad you said that gettig out Erik was a good move, and I think Amber's plan to let Rob take the bullets was brilliant, and you covinced me that she had more to do with Kathy than I thought. I still would personally put Natalie ahead of Amber though, jmo.