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AnomyBC	Re: Composite Edgic Chart	#21	[-]
Posts: 4943 (05/25/04 10:14 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Interesting, but some complaints....... 1. Maybe it's just my computer, but MOR, MORN, MORP all appear to be exactly the same color. 2. The color you have for Mike, Jeff, and Rob C doesn't appear to match anything in the key. 3. Rupert was booted before Tijuana, Darrah was booted before Jon, and Jessie was booted before Carl. 4. How exactly was Kelly G an OTTN??? She came accross as very likeable, I thought, and she was portrayed as an innocent victim of Lex's crazy ego-fueled witch hunt. 5. How does Carl get a CP? He was only in 3 episodes! 6. How exactly was Neleh an OTTP??? She seemed to get a very mixed portrayal. I would have given her a CP. 7. Nick was portrayed negatively? 8. Sonja was an OTTP??? 9. Debb, Mitchell, and Stephanie were OTTN??? 10. Matt was a CP but Jenna wasn't??? 11. The majority of the people you have as UTRN don't strike me as being under the radar. Especially Zoe, Tammy, Penny, Joanna, and Rob C (ASS). 12. No "negative" for Joel, Clarence, Robert, Jeanne, Alex, Andrew, Burton, Lillian, Jerri (ASS), Alicia (ASS), or Shii-Ann (ASS)? 13. And why does Andrew get an OTT?
KernelQ	Re: Composite Edgic Chart	#22	[-]
Posts: 3090 (05/26/04 8:00 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	ABC, I will try to answer your questions and then make a general comment below. ----------- 1.Maybe it's just my computer, but MOR, MORN, MORP all appear to be exactly the same color. [yes, we ran out of colors so all the MOR's are yellow - what can I say we don't live in a perfect world.] 2. The color you have for Mike, Jeff, and Rob C doesn't appear to match anything in the key. [they are all CPN, I don't know why they look slightly different] 3. Rupert was booted before Tijuana, Darrah was booted before Jon, and Jessie was booted before Carl. [RW, will make those changes] 4. How exactly was Kelly G an OTTN??? She came accross as very likeable, I thought, and she was portrayed as an innocent victim of Lex's crazy ego-fueled witch hunt. [We didn't have MORP and MORN prior to S6. Kelly was not very CP, however with the newer ratings I would be inclined to rate her as MORN vs. OTTN - better?] 5. How does Carl get a CP? He was only in 3 episodes! [Same as Kelly, was not OTT or UTR, but perhaps he too was closer to MORN?] 6. How exactly was Neleh an OTTP??? She seemed to get a very mixed portrayal. I would have given her a CP. [Neleh was only CP for a couple eps. mostly OTTP with her relationship with Paschal - I'm not sure I would change that] 7. Nick was portrayed negatively? [yes, mostly lazy, repeated throughout the season] 8. Sonja was an OTTP??? [I will defer to RW, who is watching S1 now] 9. Debb, Mitchell, and Stephanie were OTTN??? [yes, they are almost all posterpeople for that catagory] 10. Matt was a CP but Jenna wasn't??? [yes, mostly with his relationship with Rob C.] 11. The majority of the people you have as UTRN don't strike me as being under the radar. Especially Zoe, Tammy, Penny, Joanna, and Rob C (ASS). [All lacked visability or facetime and had a negative spin] 12. No "negative" for Joel, Clarence, Robert, Jeanne, Alex, Andrew, Burton, Lillian, Jerri (ASS), Alicia (ASS), or Shii-Ann (ASS)? [I will defer to RW on Joel, but most of the rest had enough mix of pos. to make them closer to neutral] 13. And why does Andrew get an OTT? [lots of visability, but not much meaningful editing, mostly the sound piece for his tribal conditions - not very CP, but not overly Pos. or Neg. either] ------------- General comment: Others are welcomed to comment on ABC's concerns. [to all] Rather than ask why someone was rated a peticular category, make a case for why you think it should be something different. The main reason we do the ratings is that it is difficult to accuratly look back. During S5, we spent most of our time debating the overall ratings of S1, S2, S3 and S4. The big difference is that we did have a MOR category, however we did not have MORP and MORN until S6. Therefore, some people in S1-S5 may have been rated differently in light of those two catagories. ABC, I addressed a bunch of your questions. Feel free to point to any ratings that you still feel strongly are rated incorrectly. Then we can get others to comment and get some sort of concensus. So we don't create a circus almosphere, maybe the best way to do this would be: [example] Carl is CP, but I believe he was MORN [insert reasons why]. If we get two or three posters to agree without any disagreement, then we make the change. KQ
KernelQ	Re: Composite Edgic Chart	#23	[-]
Posts: 3090 (05/26/04 8:02 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The S7 and ASS Edgic Threads are in the 'Attic' and not Monster Island as I previously stated. You cannot post in the Attic, but the information will be there for reference. KQ
wallduck	S1, Joel and Rudy	#24	[-]
Posts: 568 (05/26/04 9:11 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	*Quote:* I'll offer up 2 people to debate: I agree that Joel was N, primarily because of his arrogant sexism. Even though it was Gervase who originally made the cow comment, Gervase had a sweetness and a personal kindness that balanced him out to MOR. Joel didn't, and he deserved the derisive "Mooo." But I would call Joel MORN, rather than OTTN, simply because he didn't have enough presence to be OTT. Remember the great debate of ASS about how visibility relates to OTT? I'm not sure I correctly got the bottom line of that debate, but I think it applies here, and I would say Joel wasn't visible enough to be OTT overall. I agree that Rudy was OTT, but I wouldn't say OTTP overall. Just OTT neutral. It's true that he was/is very popular with a segment of the audience; but his blatant sexism, homophobia, and general weirdness was distressing to another segment. Remember when he speculated that Greg had an incestuous relationship with his sister? And that Colleen was having "lesbianism" with Kelly and Jenna?! True OTTPs, like Colleen and Rupert, aren't weirdat least not in a nasty way.
9RedWing19	S1 - Sonja	#25	[-]
Posts: 2688 (05/26/04 10:10 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I'm going to do a second pass through the Borneo DVD's, but from what I recollect of Sonja, I agree with the OTTP. - cancer survivor looking for new life experiences - serenading Tagi on her ukelele - having her battle scars tended by Sean - her confessional about losing the first IC - her post-boot comments (agreeing with the decision) No question about the P in my mind. And I think you can be OTT even if you're only there for one episode. Her story-line was very straightforward (we were supposed to admire her for trying this experience at this point in her life), so I think the OTT is the best fit.
AnomyBC	Re: Composite Edgic Chart	#26	[-]
Posts: 4943 (05/26/04 4:29 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I'm sorry, but a lot of your determinations are just insane. At least the great majority of the things I mentioned should be changed. The Kelly G thing especially astonishes me---as does the lack of a "negative" for Clarence. Did you even watch Season 3??? And again, Jenna's personality was portrayed as a hell of lot more complex than Matt's. Jenna changed and grew as the show went on and Matt was one of the most one-dimensional characters of all-time!! And the Neleh, Carl, Stephanie, Zoe, Penny, Tammy, and Joanna classifications are completely ridiculous too. Here's what I'd give the people I just mentioned...... Kelly - MORP Clarence - OTTN Jenna - CP Matt - OTT Neleh - CP Carl - MORN Stephanie - MORN Zoe - OTTN Penny - MORN Tammy - MORN Joanna - OTTN
9RedWing19	Re: Composite Edgic Chart	#27	[-]
Posts: 2688 (05/26/04 7:55 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	*Quote:* I'm sorry, but a lot of your determinations are just insane. Not sure who the "your" is - hope it's not me! The rankings reflect the consensus of previous Edgic threads. Not everyone will agree with every ranking. Take JennaM for example. There was a long, long discussion about what her rating should be. Take a read through the first 4 or 5 pages of the S7 Edgic thread that currently resides in the Attic. Don't forget that up to and including S6 there was no MORN or MORP classification.
9RedWing19	Colours etc	#28	[-]
Posts: 2688 (05/26/04 7:57 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I've exchanged PM's with KQ and have come up with a revised colour scheme that will give separate colours to MORP and MORN. I should have the updated charts plus S7 episode-by-episode uploaded sometime this weekend.
fat little fingers	Re: Colours etc	#29	[-]
Posts: 6365 (05/26/04 8:27 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I appreciate the work RW.
KernelQ	Re: Colours etc	#30	[-]
Posts: 3090 (05/27/04 8:03 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Yea, only an insane person would put up with all this crap and still continue on. Perhaps you should check your emotions at the door, this isn't SurvivorMania OTTN KellyG - MORP [I would agree with MORN - however she was not edited positively] MOR Clarence - OTTN [I would agree with MORN , not OTTN- Clarence was not OTTN after the bean thing, he was actually downplayed and pleasant up to his boot and was shown bonding with Tom/Kelly, working and gathering - not strickly OTT] MOR Jenna - CP [Nope, only CP briefly with Alex and briefly with Hiedi - she is a MOR postergirl.] CPP Matt - OTT [in reality and in hindsight he was OTT, but on the show he was talking Manderin (sp?) early and look at all the strategy plus providing in the second half - definitely a CP player.] OTTP Neleh - CP [Nope, you're ignoring ¾ of the show where she did nothing but be Paschals sidekick] CPN Carl - MORN [I would agree with this in light of the new rating] OTTN Stephanie - MORN [I agree here] Her ratings were: OTT, OTTN, UTR, CP, MOR UTRN Zoe - OTTN [Nope - ignored for the entire first half] UTRN Penny - MORN [Nope} Here are her ratings, UTRN, UTR, UTR, UTR, CPP, UTRN, OTTN, UTR and OTTN. UTRN Tammy - MORN [Nope - ignored for the entire first half] UTRN Joanna - OTTN [Perhaps MORN, but definitely not OTTN] her ratings were: UTRP, OTTN, UTRN, MOR. I agree with: KellyG, Carl and Stephanie as MORN I would lean towards: Clarence and Joanna as MORN also. No offense ABC, but we are not about to change every rating you don't agree with. Especially since you provided no argument for most of your request. I appreciate your input, regardless KQ p.s. let's chime in, because we will need at least a few to agree on any changes.
colleenlover	Re: Colours etc	#31	[-]
Posts: 9333 (05/27/04 8:43 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Exactly -this is not an exact science -and again, you'll go nuts if you try to crack a code with all of this -it simply isn't there because life doesn't work that way ...however, we have deduced that there is slight of hand and tricks to be played here -strings being pulled to enhance the audiance's feelings. Yes Neleh is OTTP overall -yet takes a very specific nosedive in the last few episodes -FROM THE EDITORS -again, to pull some strings -to cast that doubt in the final two. How does this character differ from a basic Colleen/Lis/Rupert edit of OTTP? Obviously, if the created characters of Colleen/Lis/Rupert had made the final two and lost -or won, more importantly -the show doesn't work. 1) either we're scratching our heads wondering how Ms./Mr. Perfect lost or would be bored by the blowout the winner has against the loser -ie. Colleen wins over Sue, Lis wins over Jerri, Rupert wins over JFP. So when we have that OTTP character (Neleh) who all of a sudden takes that nosedive -then that should be the headsup -if a way we got it with Amber this season -pleasatn Positive comments -then BAM -comments about playing Rob, and Shii Ann's comments.
fat little fingers	Re: Colours etc	#32	[-]
Posts: 6365 (05/27/04 8:48 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I agree. Edgic works best when it's a little island of cool observation in a sea of hot and heavy fandom, emoting and flame throwing. (Not that all those things don't always happen here too!) ;-)P
KernelQ	Re: Colours etc	#33	[-]
Posts: 3090 (05/27/04 9:52 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	That is why it is more important to understand why Jenna won and why Zoe and Tammy did not. A rating of UTRN vs. MORN does not change the thought process. These ratings are nice to have, but we can also over-analyze them to death. Not everyone will agree with every rating - that is just the human nature part of the process. It's more important that we understand that if we see another Zoe/Tammy character that we rule them out vs. another JennaM edited character who has a chance to win. CL makes a good point with the slight of hand, which is also to say the flow or trend of the edit. In some cases it points to an impending exit and in some cases it points to a final four or two character. We need to recognize the difference. I'm still willing to discuss changes in overall ratings, but do not want this to be a three ring circus. I'd just assume get this out of the way now, because once the new season is under way, then I have zero interest in re-visiting these ratings. KQ
colleenlover	Re: Colours etc	#34	[-]
Posts: 9333 (05/27/04 10:23 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Well, I think we need to look at flags in a basic edit. I.E the tone with Amber was UTRP in the first few episodes, yet we had a very strong choice of the editor's choosing to use a snippet to drive home a point -a manipulated shot. That is a flag. Another potential flag is Kim Powers manipulated shot in episode three with the brats cooking -we have Silas telling the elders that they burned the foodn -"or Kim did" -we have an isolated shot of Kim looking contemplative knowing that the OTTN characters she surrounds herself with are jerks -later reinforced in episode 4/5. This is a potential flag -it's manipulation with a character. Now the question comes how do you rule out Powers and not Brhkfhgdk? -I don't know.
KernelQ	Re: Colours etc	#35	[-]
Posts: 3090 (05/27/04 11:46 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	CL, You lose me when you start talking about single scene shots. Thats never been part of what I look at. It sounds like we have two completely different theorys. KQ
fat little fingers	Re: Colours etc	#36	[-]
Posts: 6365 (05/27/04 11:49 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	RW: Love the Canadian spelling. =) CL: You were the earliest, most consistant and most persistant in trying to get us to pay attention to Amber's manipulations. "Now the question comes how do you rule out Powers and not Brhkfhgdk?" Possibly the ruling comes with the edit analysis in total (at least from wherever in the season it is tallied.) Mute shots and voiceovers are used with many players. What I recall you noting was that Amber's basically vacuous content was being consistantly pumped up with manufactured content. The question then becomes, "For what purpose would an editor do this?" The flag can't give the answer, but informs about the edit. It then needs to be placed in context with what we see accuring in the other edits around it. ie., To what degree is this form of edit above or below similar edits taking place in the same episode bracket? I'm writing fast. Does this make sense?
colleenlover	Re: Colours etc	#37	[-]
Posts: 9333 (05/27/04 12:27 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	A single scene shot is a shot of one person. it has been edited in. If you watch the show closely-when we have a reaction shot -it is usually not at the exact time that it happens. Roughly the same time, but still not happening at the same moment. The only proof you can have of someone's honest reaction at the time is if you have a two-shot (a shot of two people in camera frame) ie. If Rob had said there can only be one winner and Amber whips her head around. If Rob and Amber had been in the same shot when this was captured -Rob says the statement and Amber turns her head, Tom's arm in the pic, etc -well, then the comment can only be used as Rob saying there can only be one winner -it just happened to catch Amber aknowledging this. With the Amber solo shot used, we have no match for this -she may have not even turned her head at that moment -maybe she turned to look at Rob when Sue said something funny -who knows? But the way it was composed was to allert the audience, that Rob said something profound, and Amber took note of it -even if that wasn't the case in real life at the time. This is a flag. Isolated shots. yes, there could be a lot of them and some won't amount to much -but I can't dismiss them. -such as Kim Powers -I had no idea to know if she really was alone when they were infighting during the night fights in Samburu -but the point was her shots were inserted with none of the others in sight to make it look like it was happening at the same time.
fat little fingers	Re: Colours etc	#38	[-]
Posts: 6365 (05/27/04 12:44 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I think story arcs are a necessary consideration with such edits. The single scene shot is often used to elaborate on or even fabricate a little one or two ep interpersonal battle. It's also the distraction bs edit of choice. What I remember of Amber is that she was getting these things many times with no story arc at all, just her personality being inserted as some kind of mute commentator on significant events or TC comments. Kind of like Forrest Gump being spliced in with LBJ. She was Gumped!
KernelQ	Re: Colours etc	#39	[-]
Posts: 3090 (05/27/04 1:16 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	My comments after ep. 3: ------------ Sledge pointed out at sucks that the ones to comment on Jenna's leaving may be key. I re-watched the episode and I have to agree. It's sort of ironic that Alicia, Amber, RobM, Tom and Rupert all commented on-screen. Other than Kathy during Alicia's speech, no other players comments were shown. Interesting. Could these comments have an impact on 1) the final five or 2) the final two? Once again, I'm leaning towards Chapera. I also noticed more on Amber than during my first viewing. Of all the people to have on-screen strategy within this strategy void season. Another Hmm? Lots of 'facetime' and very positive. that's all for now. KQ ----------- By episode 4/5 I had Amber losing in the final two based on the editing and stayed with that until the end because of her manipulated editing. All based on the overall editing and Edgic rules, so I still don't understand or see the value of single shot editing. By your own admission Kimp had one that didn't pan out. Seems like grasping at straws to me. KQ
colleenlover	Re: Colours etc	#40	[-]
Posts: 9333 (05/27/04 1:25 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	It may be grasping at straws. But I think in terms of editing, it is stronger to look at these things then wondering why a MORN or UTR doesn't pan out as the winner. It's a show made up of editing. Yes, the KimP thing didn't work outn -but it is along the right track to a endproduct -it's happened with Tina and vecepia and Neleh and so forth -it's making something out of nothing. It's adding weight to something that's really not interesting in real life. And it sure as hell happened with Sandra and Lil (payback can be painful) -Manipulation with single shots is there for a reason. Kim Powers was I assume ultimately to give her the softer edit to make a Colleen/Lis character -distance herself from the negative brats -there was an intended purpose.

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