Survivor Fever Bootsheet

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AnneZob		#2721	[-]
Posts: 80 (04/18/08 10:24 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Katy Carney wrote: Relynn wrote: Trying to win at a game is not a betrayal of friendship. It's the fundamental purpose of competition. You would think someone like Ozzy would know that. But he doesn't. That is simple reality. The thing is though Parvati also benefited from the out-of-game friendship that Ozzie has with her. Do you think they would have aligned so quickly and remain so tight if for the fact they weren't as close as brother and sister out of the game? Parvati used her friendship with Ozzie to further herself just as Rob M. did with his friendship with Lex. The thing is though if you are going to use an external friendship to further yourself you should expect a personal backlash. Cirie however took the chance of allying herself but not too tightly with Ozzie . On the downside this meant that Ozzie wouldn't feel as much loyalty to her as he would Parvati and Amanda but on the upside it meant he wouldn't blame her for her betrayal. Nothing comes from free and the winner is the one who can balance the opposing forces and needs - align yourself enough so you don't get voted out but not too tightly you lose too many votes. If Parvati can't handle that balance then she deserves to lose.
Relynn		#2722	[-]
Posts: 196 (04/18/08 10:28 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Katy Carney wrote: Another thing about Todd and Will from Big Brother was that they were honest with people. They were honest that they were players, everyone said they knew Todd would turn on them. So nobody felt that angry when Todd did because they were expecting it. Yes, backstabbing is necessary in the game, but a lot of it is HOW you backstab, So Parvati's big mistake was not telling people she was going to backstab them? I think the truth is that people just don't like to lose. If they can see it coming a little bit from someone they have game respect for then they can justify it in their minds. Parvati seems harmless and they were all so fooled by her that they feel defensive and stupid. They feel like fools and they're bitter about it. Parvati had to make a deal with Natalie and Alexis for both her and James' sake over at Airai. Her deal also helped keep the fans from uniting with Eliza and forcing a tie, and left room for Ozzy/James to be booted before the end when they were likely to go on an immunity streak. It wasn't just an alliance for the sake of an alliance. Ozzy wasn't as angry with Cirie because Cirie never made huge promises to Ozzy, and never pretended to be anything other than a power player. Ozzy isn't mad at Cirie because he never really liked her all that much to begin with. He didn't lose anything. If you're saying that Cirie's a genius because she was the fifth member of her alliance and no one trusted her, I think you must be joking. I'm not saying you want to be super obvious about the fact that your not trustworthy. But I think there is a reason why players like Will/Todd are better received than players like Pavarti. And the point is that making all those promises to everyone can blow up in your face. One could argue that telling 7 people that you'll be in their final 4 isn't exactly that difficult. And Cirie is going pretty far, and is managing to tick of a lot less people than Pavarti.
Coachocd		#2723	[-]
Posts: 7098 (04/18/08 10:35 PM) MESS member Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Timing is also an important thing. Sure Ozzy needed to be taken out eventually but right at this time? It was a good time for Cirie as she no longer needs Ozzie post-merge and she knows he won't blame her but was it a good time for Parvati? Good time or not, it may have been ONLY time it could have happened. Parvati needed a voting majority that wouldn't tip off James, Amanda or Eric, all who would have then spilled the beans to Ozzy, who would have then played the idol. The closer he got to the final 5, the more likely he would play the idol. If Ozzy made it to the final 4, he only has to win one immunity to get into the final 3 and win. It was now or never. She made the right choice. However, she still has to put together a voting majority, so you cannot backstab everyone.
Relynn		#2724	[-]
Posts: 197 (04/18/08 10:38 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	AnneZob wrote: Katy Carney wrote: Relynn wrote: Trying to win at a game is not a betrayal of friendship. It's the fundamental purpose of competition. You would think someone like Ozzy would know that. But he doesn't. That is simple reality. The thing is though Parvati also benefited from the out-of-game friendship that Ozzie has with her. Do you think they would have aligned so quickly and remain so tight if for the fact they weren't as close as brother and sister out of the game? Parvati used her friendship with Ozzie to further herself just as Rob M. did with his friendship with Lex. The thing is though if you are going to use an external friendship to further yourself you should expect a personal backlash. Cirie however took the chance of allying herself but not too tightly with Ozzie . On the downside this meant that Ozzie wouldn't feel as much loyalty to her as he would Parvati and Amanda but on the upside it meant he wouldn't blame her for her betrayal. Nothing comes from free and the winner is the one who can balance the opposing forces and needs - align yourself enough so you don't get voted out but not too tightly you lose too many votes. If Parvati can't handle that balance then she deserves to lose. That's true, although Ozzy to his credit doesn't sound as angry as Lex was.
Katy Carney		#2725	[-]
Posts: 861 (04/18/08 10:40 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	AnneZob wrote: But he doesn't. That is simple reality. The thing is though Parvati also benefited from the out-of-game friendship that Ozzie has with her. Do you think they would have aligned so quickly and remain so tight if for the fact they weren't as close as brother and sister out of the game? Parvati used her friendship with Ozzie to further herself just as Rob M. did with his friendship with Lex. The thing is though if you are going to use an external friendship to further yourself you should expect a personal backlash. Cirie however took the chance of allying herself but not too tightly with Ozzie . On the downside this meant that Ozzie wouldn't feel as much loyalty to her as he would Parvati and Amanda but on the upside it meant he wouldn't blame her for her betrayal. Nothing comes from free and the winner is the one who can balance the opposing forces and needs - align yourself enough so you don't get voted out but not too tightly you lose too many votes. If Parvati can't handle that balance then she deserves to lose. Oh I see. So Cirie made Ozzy distrust her a little on purpose just so he wouldn't blame her for his ouster and that was her cunning plan all along. Well that totally makes sense. See I just thought it sort of worked out that she had less allies and had a less close connection with him and benefitted from the fact that Parvati made enough friends to make it happen. But now that I know it was her plan all along for Parvati to make friends with Natalie and Alexis so they could team up and vote out Ozzy, pissing him off marginally more at Parvati than herself...well wow! I wonder if she used her magical powers to arrange the rocks in the swap episode and then used her puppetmaster powers to pick the teams! It only looked like Natalie and Ozzy were talking! Genius! But I think there is a reason why players like Will/Todd are better received than players like Pavarti. They're men. It's alright for the men to think about themselves and selfishly try to win competitions, the women are only allowed to win if they have no choice but to fight for themselves, like Danni, Sandra, Vecepia, etc. Women masterminds are bitches who should be nicer and more nurturing.
AnneZob		#2726	[-]
Posts: 82 (04/18/08 10:48 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Katy Carney wrote: AnneZob wrote: But he doesn't. That is simple reality. The thing is though Parvati also benefited from the out-of-game friendship that Ozzie has with her. Do you think they would have aligned so quickly and remain so tight if for the fact they weren't as close as brother and sister out of the game? Parvati used her friendship with Ozzie to further herself just as Rob M. did with his friendship with Lex. The thing is though if you are going to use an external friendship to further yourself you should expect a personal backlash. Cirie however took the chance of allying herself but not too tightly with Ozzie . On the downside this meant that Ozzie wouldn't feel as much loyalty to her as he would Parvati and Amanda but on the upside it meant he wouldn't blame her for her betrayal. Nothing comes from free and the winner is the one who can balance the opposing forces and needs - align yourself enough so you don't get voted out but not too tightly you lose too many votes. If Parvati can't handle that balance then she deserves to lose. Oh I see. So Cirie made Ozzy distrust her a little on purpose just so he wouldn't blame her for his ouster and that was her cunning plan all along. Well that totally makes sense. See I just thought it sort of worked out that she had less allies and had a less close connection with him and benefitted from the fact that Parvati made enough friends to make it happen. But now that I know it was her plan all along for Parvati to make friends with Natalie and Alexis so they could team up and vote out Ozzy, pissing him off marginally more at Parvati than herself...well wow! I wonder if she used her magical powers to arrange the rocks in the swap episode and then used her puppetmaster powers to pick the teams! It only looked like Natalie and Ozzy were talking! Genius! Not distrust her on purpose - and it cannot be certain whether or not she made any specific promises to him but note this - everyone going into the game knew that Ozzie would be one of the biggest immunity challenge threats and they would probably need to vote him out at some point. They should also have known his bitter betsy nature. During Episode 3 when Cirie was contemplating which alliance to go into she made the sub alliance with Parvati and Amanda, not including Ozzie in it. She made a deliberate move to exclude Ozzie. All winners do this fine parsing at some point or another. Tom in Palau wasn't the sharpest strategic mind around but he did that too so at Final TC he could say "I said I'd take you as far as I could but I never promised you I'd take you all the way." The situation was such that it lead to Cirie and Ozzie not being close either but Cirie never made any attempt to try to make herself close to Ozzie that we can see. It is a combination of situation and strategy as most things are in Survivor. The proof though is in the pudding. Ozzie doesn't hold any bitterness to Cirie for ousting him. If he finds out Parvati betrayed him though he assures us he will screw her. Last Edited By: AnneZob 04/18/08 10:50 PM. Edited 1 times.
Katy Carney		#2727	[-]
Posts: 863 (04/18/08 10:51 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	If you're saying that it fell into her lap that way, then yes I agree that it did work out for her in a way (I still don't believe Cirie will be getting Ozzy's vote no matter what so it's a moot point as far as I'm concerned). If you're saying that she made him like her less on purpose and Parvati's big mistake was being liked too much, then I think you're writing fan fiction.
AnneZob		#2728	[-]
Posts: 83 (04/18/08 11:04 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Katy Carney wrote: If you're saying that it fell into her lap that way, then yes I agree that it did work out for her in a way (I still don't believe Cirie will be getting Ozzy's vote no matter what so it's a moot point as far as I'm concerned). If you're saying that she made him like her less on purpose and Parvati's big mistake was being liked too much, then I think you're writing fan fiction. When did I ever say she made him like her less on purpose? All I said was she avoided deliberately getting too close to him. It's just like how Tom never avoided giving assurances to Caryn, he just avoided saying specifically he would take her to the end. Fine parsing is the hallmark of Survivor winners. You have to give enough assurance to not get voted out yourself but not enough that the person you backstab will take it personally. Every Survivor winner has faced this challenge. For example Yul offered the idol to Becky even at great risk to himself because if he didn't and she got voted out he knew she would feel betrayed and probably vote against him. The person who wins survivor is the one who can best manage this balance. If Parvati can't then people can whinge about how X should have voted for her if they weren't so bitter and how it was unfair how she lost etc. etc. as much as they like. Handling potential bitterness is all part of the game. If Parvati can't handle it then she deserves to lose - not because Ozzie was bitter but because she was simply not a good enough player. It would be all her own fault, not Ozzie's or anyone else on the jury. And talking about Cirie's "good luck" that Ozzie didn't like her - it was bad luck too. It put her at much greater risk of being voted out earlier in the game and especially after the swap she was dependent on Ozzy to stay in the game. And Parvati had her fair share of good luck as well e.g. JFP deciding to quit. Everyone has good and bad luck in this game. As Yul says the key is taking advantage of good luck and mitigating bad luck. As for Ozzy voting for Cirie. It comes from his own post-game interview and comments. He says he knows Cirie voted for him and he doesn't mind but if he finds out Parvati voted him out (and he will eventually) he is going to screw her. And we know from CI he really really hates betrayal and can carry a grudge for a very long time. The chances of Ozzie voting for Parvati are nill. Last Edited By: AnneZob 04/18/08 11:12 PM. Edited 3 times.
Katy Carney		#2729	[-]
Posts: 864 (04/18/08 11:11 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	AnneZob wrote: Katy Carney wrote: If you're saying that it fell into her lap that way, then yes I agree that it did work out for her in a way (I still don't believe Cirie will be getting Ozzy's vote no matter what so it's a moot point as far as I'm concerned). If you're saying that she made him like her less on purpose and Parvati's big mistake was being liked too much, then I think you're writing fan fiction. When did I ever say she made him like her less on purpose? All I said was she avoided deliberately getting too close to him. It's just like how Tom never avoided giving assurances to Caryn, he just avoided saying specifically he would take her to the end. Fine parsing is the hallmark of Survivor winners. As for Ozzy voting for Cirie. It comes from his own post-game interview and comments. He says he knows Cirie voted for him and he doesn't mind but if he finds out Parvati voted him out (and he will eventually) he is going to screw her. And we know from CI he really really hates betrayal and can carry a grudge for a very long time. The chances of Ozzie voting for Parvati are nill. Yeah...fan fiction. It worked out for Cirie that Ozzy felt closer to Parvati. Practically everyone left feels closer to Parvati. That has nothing to do with Cirie's strategy, get real. Come back to earth. Neither Cirie nor Parvati have been shown agreeing to take Ozzy to the end. There is zero information to suggest that Parvati had agreed to go to the end with him, he just liked Parvati more than Cirie. There's no "fine parsing" about it. That's like saying Amanda's strategy was to have Cirie and Parvati betray Ozzy so she could be blameless and avoid bitterness. So Amanda > Cirie in that fantasy. Amanda should beat Cirie at the end because she avoided bitterness and thus was the better player. Yes, definitely.
AnneZob		#2730	[-]
Posts: 84 (04/18/08 11:28 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Katy Carney wrote: AnneZob wrote: Katy Carney wrote: If you're saying that it fell into her lap that way, then yes I agree that it did work out for her in a way (I still don't believe Cirie will be getting Ozzy's vote no matter what so it's a moot point as far as I'm concerned). If you're saying that she made him like her less on purpose and Parvati's big mistake was being liked too much, then I think you're writing fan fiction. When did I ever say she made him like her less on purpose? All I said was she avoided deliberately getting too close to him. It's just like how Tom never avoided giving assurances to Caryn, he just avoided saying specifically he would take her to the end. Fine parsing is the hallmark of Survivor winners. As for Ozzy voting for Cirie. It comes from his own post-game interview and comments. He says he knows Cirie voted for him and he doesn't mind but if he finds out Parvati voted him out (and he will eventually) he is going to screw her. And we know from CI he really really hates betrayal and can carry a grudge for a very long time. The chances of Ozzie voting for Parvati are nill. Yeah...fan fiction. It worked out for Cirie that Ozzy felt closer to Parvati. Practically everyone left feels closer to Parvati. That has nothing to do with Cirie's strategy, get real. Come back to earth. Neither Cirie nor Parvati have been shown agreeing to take Ozzy to the end. There is zero information to suggest that Parvati had agreed to go to the end with him, he just liked Parvati more than Cirie. There's no "fine parsing" about it. That's like saying Amanda's strategy was to have Cirie and Parvati betray Ozzy so she could be blameless and avoid bitterness. So Amanda > Cirie in that fantasy. Amanda should beat Cirie at the end because she avoided bitterness and thus was the better player. Yes, definitely. I never said anything about either Cirie or Parvati making firm promises to Ozzie because we aren't shown it. I did however talk about personal closeness because we are shown it in the show and from interviews. Parvati deliberately played up on her personal closeness with Ozzie - that is undeniable. Thus she should have expected that if she betrayed him it would be taken personally because she used his personal feelings to further herself further into the game. Also she was in CI as well. She should know what his personality is like. He doesn't take betrayal well. Knowing this she should have not tried to take advantage of her personal closeness to Ozzy or should have taken steps to mitigate the fact he will be a lost vote and try to curry favor with other jurors e.g. not have been so nasty to Eliza. As for Cirie. Not once are we shown her trying to get close to Ozzie even though it would have been in her short-term advantage to try to e.g. after the swap. The thing is though even if it wasn't her strategy to not get close to Ozzie she took advantage of the opportunity that was given to her and turned a disadvantage into an advantage. She booted Ozzy, a big threat, knowing he wouldn't blame her being close and she could probably guess knowing his personality he would blame Parvati. That is definitely strategy. Parvati however managed to turn what was an advantage (her closeness with Ozzy) into a disadvantage. If she was going to boot him it should have been in a situation where she could deflect the blame on to someone else or just write off his vote and curry favor with others e.g. she could have been less nasty to Eliza because she knew she would lose Ozzy's vote when she eventually voted him out. The key thing is Cirie managed to turn a disadvantage into an advantage and Parvati managed to turn an advantage into a disadvantage or at least try to mitigate the damage. Basically Parvati isn't a very good strategic player or she simply isn't good at reading people. In the end though it comes down to the fact that whoever wins deserves to win and whoever loses deserves to lose. And this is true even if the jury is bitter. Which is why even UTR winners deserve to win. They didn't "steal" the victory. Part of being a good player is managing the jury. If you can't do that you deserve to lose Survivor no matter how good you are in other aspects of the game. In fact it is by far the most important aspect of the game after simply not being voted out as it is the jury that decides if you win or lose. If the jury is bitter and Parvati loses because of it, then so be it. It is no more than what she deserves from the quality of her play. It is dead easy to make promises to everyone. Even an idiot can do it. The hard part is avoiding the consequences for it. Just like in real life it doesn't take a genius to rob a bank. The hard part is avoiding getting caught. Last Edited By: AnneZob 04/18/08 11:42 PM. Edited 4 times.
SYJYTG		#2731	[-]
Posts: 59 (04/19/08 12:01 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	How do you know it is a F2 and not a F3?
finishthemoff		#2732	[-]
Posts: 8144 (04/19/08 12:05 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	and how does that explains Eliza being on the jury?
survivorready		#2733	[-]
Posts: 141 (04/19/08 12:15 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite
survivorready		#2734	[-]
Posts: 142 (04/19/08 12:16 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite
survivorready		#2735	[-]
Posts: 143 (04/19/08 12:19 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I can't believe that people here are actually f--king defending Ozzy. Ozzy was played. He should just suck it up and stop whining. Ozzy not only played the game once, he got to play it twice. People writing on these boards might not even play the game once. Ozzy had the chance to win Immunity: he quit. He had the chance to play the HII: he didn't. Ozzy should blame himself for not playing a better game. I hated how he was talking to most of the intererviewers with one word answers. He is just being such a loser. It happened to Lex the first time and now Ozzy is becoming the new Lex. I can see Ozzy's frustration: he was blinsided, he was outlasted by douchebag Jason, Parvati betrayed him, he didn't even bring his bag to TC. Well, if he truly knew how to play the game, nothing like this would have happened. I will be so pissed if Parvati loses because of a crybaby like Ozzy. I mean, I will be happy to see Cirie win, but if Parvati deserves it, she should win it. And I will never watch Survivor again if Alexis defeats Parvati in a F2/F3 situation.
Katy Carney		#2736	[-]
Posts: 865 (04/19/08 12:36 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	AnneZob...you're entire "analysis", if you can even call it that, is speculation and assumption based on nothing more than your desire to see Cirie win. You have a conclusion and are trying to rationalize it as you go, you can tell. It's counterintuitive. To say that Cirie knew Ozzy takes betrayal badly and would hold Parvati more responsible is simply ludicrous. What's to say that Ozzy doesn't just vote for the third person in the F3 because of how badly he takes betrayal? Does Cirie predict an F2 also? Is Cirie's plan to have Parvati take her to the F2 she knows about? Can Cirie predict that James and Amanda won't turn on Parvati and vote her out, thus killing Cirie's chances of going against her in the finals and leaving Ozzy bitter at only Cirie, denying herself a vote? Of course not. Because that wasn't her strategy. Her strategy was "get Ozzy out", end of story. It's obvious to me that because you want Cirie to win you've decided Cirie must win, and since you've decided Cirie must win you're now trying to rationalize why she should win. You're going backwards through a thought process.
AnneZob		#2737	[-]
Posts: 86 (04/19/08 12:50 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Katy Carney wrote: AnneZob...you're entire "analysis", if you can even call it that, is speculation and assumption based on nothing more than your desire to see Cirie win. You have a conclusion and are trying to rationalize it as you go, you can tell. It's counterintuitive. To say that Cirie knew Ozzy takes betrayal badly and would hold Parvati more responsible is simply ludicrous. What's to say that Ozzy doesn't just vote for the third person in the F3 because of how badly he takes betrayal? Does Cirie predict an F2 also? Is Cirie's plan to have Parvati take her to the F2 she knows about? Can Cirie predict that James and Amanda won't turn on Parvati and vote her out, thus killing Cirie's chances of going against her in the finals and leaving Ozzy bitter at only Cirie, denying herself a vote? Of course not. Because that wasn't her strategy. Her strategy was "get Ozzy out", end of story. Of course it is possible that Ozzy would vote for the 3rd person in the F3. There are always risks and anyone who claims they can completely control voting is stupid. The only thing you can control is probability. But in voting Ozzy out the way that happened Cirie knew there was a good chance he wouldn't blame her. Also noone is saying that Cirie planned every single minute detail every step of the way. What we are talking about are tendencies which may/may not reinforce just what fate throws at you e.g. personal likes and dislikes. But as for her taking into account the way people have played in the past that is not speculation on my part - it is something she has written herself - that when she entered the game the key thing she took into account was how people have played in the past. What are the key things any idiot know about Ozzy from CI? He is a big immunity threat, a big final TC threat and really really hates betrayal. Also Cirie has shown herself to be one of the best people readers in the game. Also this doesn't require Cirie to be a genius as it simply requires Cirie to just play the game on a semi-decent level. Everyone decent who plays the game know they need to walk the fine line between not getting voted out and not getting voted for at final TC. Half the players that play the game (the better half) walk around thinking about this and take it into consideration into every move they make, when they make promises, how close they get to people, how they word things etc. It shadows every move they make esp. once the jury starts. They just don't show it explicitly much of the time probably because it's not very exciting and they need to build tension. The Tom and Caryn thing wasn't followed with a confessional with Tom going "Oh and I made sure that I worded my promise to Caryn carefully." It is not that Cirie would be usually perceptive in realizing she needs to find this balance. So it's not some far out wacko scenario. It is just how good players play the game. What is more of a wacked out scenario is your suggestion - a good player not taking "how will he vote if I vote him out" in their relationships. Now that is just plain illogical. It's obvious to me that because you want Cirie to win you've decided Cirie must win, and since you've decided Cirie must win you're now trying to rationalize why she should win. You're going backwards through a thought process. So says the one who really really wants Parvati to win? A bit hypocritical there aren't we? But I understand, people always delve into personal attacks when they've run out of arguments. I must admit one of the reasons I responded to you in the first place was because I felt your desperation for Parvati and I know you as being very biased towards a Parvati win. Of course I didn't say so because I didn't want to be rude to you and wanted to engage you not on a personal level. Also as I have never hidden my belief that Cirie would be the winner I felt I didn't have a leg to stand on in accusing someone else of bias (which is why I haven't done so even though there have been times I have been sorely tested esp. in edgic). But obviously some people don't have the same consideration and self-awareness. As it is, though I don't think either of us are going to convince the other and since I don't want to get engage in a personal flamewar like before I think I will stop here with this discussion. In the end the proof is in the pudding and we will see who wins, the way Cirie answers Ozzy's question at final TC and whether Ozzy votes for Cirie or not. Last Edited By: AnneZob 04/19/08 1:40 AM. Edited 12 times.
Katy Carney		#2738	[-]
Posts: 866 (04/19/08 1:38 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	There are always risks and anyone who claims they can completely control voting is stupid. Exactly why Parvati did the right thing. But in voting Ozzy out the way that happened Cirie knew there was a good chance he wouldn't blame her. But ONLY if Parvati is there to blame and there is no other alternative. Don't you see? Cirie has not read spoilers. She doesn't know Parvati is in the finals. She does not know that Ozzy said in an interview that he knew Cirie was untrustworthy. You are retroactively attributing things that you know happened to a grand plan of Cirie's when there isn't any sort of evidence to back it up. So says the one who really really wants Parvati to win? A bit hypocritical there aren't we? But I understand, people always delve into personal attacks when they've run out of arguments. I must admit one of the reasons I responded to you in the first place was because I felt your desperation for Parvati and I know you as being very biased towards a Parvati win. Of course I didn't say so because I didn't want to be rude to you and wanted to engage you not on a personal level. Also as I have never hidden my belief that Cirie would be the winner I felt I didn't have a leg to stand on in accusing someone else of bias (which is why I haven't done so even though there have been times I have been sorely tested esp. in edgic). But obviously some people don't have the same consideration and self-awareness. You're actually completely wrong in that I haven't believed Parvati would win since the Eliza boot and have said so a few times. I am not saying that your bias makes you suck or whatever, I'm saying that you are using your knowledge of spoilers and post-boot interviews to inform Cirie's strategy in a way that you wish were true. You're using knowledge that she couldn't possibly have as an example of what an astute gamer she is. You say she felt safe in voting out Ozzy because he would blame Parvati because you KNOW that Parvati is in the finals. Cirie did not know that. Cirie would certainly not get Ozzy's vote in an F3 with Erik, Amanda or James based on the premise you proposed. You read spoilers and interviews and then jammed the pieces together to fit into some fantasy master plan. I'm not at all opposed to a Cirie win, I'm just not deluding myself about the situation.
AnneZob		#2739	[-]
Posts: 87 (04/19/08 1:51 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Katy Carney wrote: There are always risks and anyone who claims they can completely control voting is stupid. Exactly why Parvati did the right thing. But in voting Ozzy out the way that happened Cirie knew there was a good chance he wouldn't blame her. But ONLY if Parvati is there to blame and there is no other alternative. Don't you see? Cirie has not read spoilers. She doesn't know Parvati is in the finals. She does not know that Ozzy said in an interview that he knew Cirie was untrustworthy. You are retroactively attributing things that you know happened to a grand plan of Cirie's when there isn't any sort of evidence to back it up. No, she doesn't read spoilers. She couldn't know that Parvati would be in the F3. But she could hope. Players align their strategies especially at this point around people they want to take to F3/F2. They hope certain players will make F3 and try to arrange things that way. What do you think that the whole goat strategy is about? It is trying to arrange someone you want to accompany you to F2/F3 who you know X, Y, and Z on the jury won't vote for. She doesn't know what Ozzy says in interviews but she knows Ozzy because she watched CI and she spent many days with him and as she said the most important thing she took into the current season was her knowledge of how people played in the past. For someone who is as good at reading people as Cirie it is probably even better knowledge than what we glean from interviews. You may have missed it because it was a recent edit of my last post so I'll post it again here. Also this doesn't require Cirie to be a genius as it simply requires Cirie to just play the game on a semi-decent level. Everyone decent who plays the game know they need to walk the fine line between not getting voted out and not getting voted for at final TC. Half the players that play the game (the better half) walk around thinking about this and take it into consideration into every move they make, when they make promises, how close they get to people, how they word things etc. It shadows every move they make esp. once the jury starts. They just don't show it explicitly much of the time probably because it's not very exciting and they need to build tension. The Tom and Caryn thing wasn't followed with a confessional with Tom going "Oh and I made sure that I worded my promise to Caryn carefully." It is not that Cirie would be usually perceptive in realizing she needs to find this balance. So it's not some far out wacko scenario. It is just how good players play the game. What is more of a wacked out scenario is your suggestion - a good player not taking "how will he vote if I vote him out" in their relationships. Now that is just plain illogical. All I am attributing to Cirie is that she just does what any semi-decent player would do. Usually this thinking of "how will the jury vote go" starts post-merge but it is clear this season that a lot of people including Cirie have been thinking long-term since early in the game.
Relynn		#2740	[-]
Posts: 198 (04/19/08 1:53 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	survivorready wrote: I can't believe that people here are actually f--king defending Ozzy. Ozzy was played. He should just suck it up and stop whining. Ozzy not only played the game once, he got to play it twice. People writing on these boards might not even play the game once. Ozzy had the chance to win Immunity: he quit. He had the chance to play the HII: he didn't. Ozzy should blame himself for not playing a better game. I hated how he was talking to most of the intererviewers with one word answers. He is just being such a loser. It happened to Lex the first time and now Ozzy is becoming the new Lex. I can see Ozzy's frustration: he was blinsided, he was outlasted by douchebag Jason, Parvati betrayed him, he didn't even bring his bag to TC. Well, if he truly knew how to play the game, nothing like this would have happened. I will be so pissed if Parvati loses because of a crybaby like Ozzy. I mean, I will be happy to see Cirie win, but if Parvati deserves it, she should win it. And I will never watch Survivor again if Alexis defeats Parvati in a F2/F3 situation. I'm not sure anyone here is defending Ozzy, we are talking about who Ozzy will vote for. Nobody's defending Ozzy's play. But here's the thing, how is Ozzy worse than Lex. Yes, Ozzy was upset that he lost the game, and yes, Ozzy said some harsh words right after the vote. But even then, he totally admited that it was his own fault that he lost. That he was dumb not to play the idol. In a video interview, Ozzy said the only player he's still mad at is himself. Yes, he disagrees with Pavarti's decision, and he says still a bit "bitter about it." But he also said in an interview that Pavarti was just trying to survive and what's done is done. So it sounds like he's willing to get past it on a personal level.. I don't think Lex EVER took responsibility for his own downfall. (Which was why the Hell did Lex think it was a good idea for him to boot all the strong men on his tribe.. Didn't he realize that the other tribe just might choose to stick with tribal alliances. And if that was the case (if he's the only strong guy left, than he's the first target)...Ozzy recognizes that he's the reason he didn't last longer But hey might have still needed that alliance to stick around anyways, and he's allowed to feel upset about a friend backstabbing. I think it's a lot easier for us to sit back and criticize players for becoming bitter. But we didn't live with those people and develop relationships, and there isn't a million dollars/even thousands of dollars at stack for us.

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