S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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colleenlover		#3201	[-]
Posts: 8803 (11/21/08 9:07 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	lurker, great post and I agree. Although, I'm ashamed to admit I liked the episode and was chuckling away. I think some people don't get that being OTTP can be a horrible thing -like telling us how to fell about someone, and ultimately you just want to punch them in the face. I felt badly for Randy -but can clearly tell how his experience was used as a tool -I still feel like Randy and Corrine are the punching bags. But what can you do?
scepticA		#3202	[-]
Posts: 1438 (11/21/08 9:09 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I also just looked at the ep of the false merge, and it's weird. Randy clearly saw the marcus idol - after all, he found it in 20 seconds. Everyone else was staring at it, so everyone saw it. Then how could Bob convince Corrine or anyone that the fake idol, that bright, colorful shiny thing he made, was the Marcus idol? Sigh. Okay - one last chance to salvage this... all you see on the bobbing bottle is the cord that the idol was attached to, not the idol itself. Yeah. That's the ticket.
Brazil Luvs Ami		#3203	[-]
Posts: 145 (11/21/08 9:33 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Everybody is kind a blind with Kenny being winner, that it seems you're aonly paying atention for the good edit he's receiving, however what really called my atention was Jeff's words to Kenny in the auction: 'Ken is giving up'. "And Kenny gives up again', 'And again Kenny is going to give up', and a lot more of this... That's not good... Ratings: Bob - MORM3 Corinne - CP3 Crystal - MORN2 Ken - UTR2 Matty - MOR3 Randy - OTTN5 Sugar - OTTN4 Susie - UTR2 Winner: I'm sticking with Matty, because during the 'Marcus wins, no one else has a shot', I never eliminated him and he was my second pick... Ken still has a shot, but I don't get his edition, I don't think he will win... Corinne is my third pick, because I can see her winning for the team, she represents her alliance, she's a team-player and loyal to her allies... And she's also a bitch (I'll be a total bitch and I'll own it)... Everyone else is eliminated (I think )
getting real		#3204	[-]
Posts: 1364 (11/21/08 9:44 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Randy clearly saw the marcus idol - after all, he found it in 20 seconds. Yes, Randy did get a close look at the idol at the merge. However, it didn't arise as an issue with Randy because Bob let Randy think that he had found the idol on EI; he only brought up the Marcus idol with Corinne to explain his actions after the event. What matters isn't whether Corinne or Randy believe the Marcus idol story; it's whether they believe that Bob acted in good faith by believing it himself or not. However, notwithstanding all of this, I hope you're right because it would make for much better television, lol.
fat little fingers		#3205	[-]
Posts: 5744 (11/21/08 10:03 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	There was never a scene in which anyone saw the Idol in a Bottle. I'm in the camp that sees the preview scene as a misdirection teaser. My only question at this point would be, Did Bob make a second idol while at EI? Or does he really hold the Bottle Idol? Sugar's wondering if he's a mad scientist with some crazy scheme just might play out. It could be very bad for her if Bob singled her out to tell about the fake idol because he intended to target her later to get her to play her idol. But, that's a plot line that doesn't make much sense. It would be an incredibly complicated and risky move that he never needed to take and he would be seen by all as dangerous and untrustworthy. Also, it would require that he plan to reduce his alliance to only Corinne and then plan to rebuild another alliance. Not rational. Either way, Bob will be entered into the Yau-Man Hall of Greatness.
Green Coffee		#3206	[-]
Posts: 100 (11/21/08 10:35 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I have to say that I did not see the EDITORIAL INTENT of making Bob negative at all. It seems that everyone here just personally thinks it was a dick move. Be that as it may, Bob was portrayed as making any move he could to gain Sugar's trust and stay in the game longer. In an episode where Randy is set up as a gigantic jerk who deserves to go home, I don't see how Bob distancing himself is necessarily negative. Before the Randy boot, here were the battle lines: Crystal, Sugar, Matty, Ken, Susie vs. Bob, Corrine, Randy Even in bizzaro world where Susie somehow does go home, it does Bob no good to cling to the NuFang alliance. In fact, if he just stayed 100% solid with them, it decreases his chances of wiggling into the Fang 5 alliance at any point and opens him up as a possibility to go instead of Corrine. While we all know that his moves will, in all likelihood, not work out, I think bashing him for betraying a sinking ship is a bit harsh. Of course, tricking Randy like that was kind of mean. However, you do whatever you possibly can to stay in the game for just one more round. By working with the Fangs, he guaranteed another round in the game and Sugar suggested she would make it "worth his time." Taking all of this together, I see nothing about Bob's move, given his desperate position, that was inherently foolish. We may make the personal value judgment that it was cruel, but I really did not see anything in the EDITING that indicated that the editors wanted viewers to think that. All of this comes from someone who generally wanted Randy to stay until the end. Tone should be, in my opinion, about the EDITING and not about people's personal opinions of players. I thought Randy was hilarious this episode. I thought Matty was kind of a douche. I thought Sugar was being sort of a bitch. However, I would say that the ratings here would be N, Neutral, and N respectively. Sometimes I agree with what the editors want me to think (Sugar), sometimes I disagree (Randy), and sometimes my personal opinion of the player comes out even when the editing didn't portray much of anything (Matty). Most would agree that the latter ratings are more accurate than the ones I would make based on personal preference, I would think.
AllMenAreIslands		#3207	[-]
Posts: 25777 (11/21/08 10:43 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	astroline wrote: ...I think we were supposed to be laughing WITH Sugar & Crystal. A lot of others feel the same way, this is the one thread that doesn't. YES YES YES. Definitely.
Cassidy666		#3208	[-]
Posts: 9160 (11/21/08 10:51 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Yeah. The whole Sugar giggling like a crazy person while needlessly making fun of someone was OTTN. It might have been entertaining but I personally felt a little queasy with Sugar's behavior which is strange since I like Corinne's brand of bitchiness. I think it's the difference between being mindlessly vindictive and purposefully bitchy. I have no idea what this edit with Bob is. He's given the soaring OTTP helicopter shot while musing about life and then he come back to camp and gets dragged into Sugar's little plot. Corinne on the other hand got a great edit. We saw how she viewed her place in the tribe and her efforts to dig herself out of the hole. It was neutral at the very least while giving insight for her story in an episode that was basically Randy-centric. Besides Corinne, Bob, Sugar and Randy, no one got any kind of useful edit. Matty maybe marginally but everyone was for the most part ignored. Corinne can't be written off at all. She's still holding steady. Anyone starting to feel that the good vs evil theme is starting to reverse around itself? Now that the ex-nu Fang are in control they've turned into quite an ugly bunch. Crystal is still moody and garrulous. Kenny is getting incredibly smug. Susie is sitting invisibly and uselessly while things happen around her. Sugar was not playing her sweetheart role and is in fact doing things that serve no strategic purpose at all other than to serve her own entertainment, at the cost of others. I can see why no one likes her in post-show interviews. Matty is the only one who could even reasonably be called sympathetic of his group while Corinne and Bob are now the underdogs. Didn't the edit set up and develop the Corinne-Bob relationship from the very first episode? It looks like it's leading somewhere. At this point I have to say I have absolutely no clue at all who could possibly win. It's impossible to pick anyone since everyone has been up and down like a yo-yo in terms of edit save a couple of exceptions.
Casey333		#3209	[-]
Posts: 213 (11/21/08 11:01 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Anyone who still has Corrine in contention should have their edgic card permanently revoked.
TheLurkerSpeaks		#3210	[-]
Posts: 1414 (11/21/08 11:05 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Yes, and that relationship was Corinne using Bob for her own purposes. I opined before that that was a negative scene for Corinne in particular and the Onions in general because Bob was getting such a positive edit. It now helps excuse Bob's turning on the Onions (even if he didn't actually know that he was being used in reality). Corinne can be written off. She's only received significant airtime when she's being manipulative or mean. Just because she finally conceded this episode that she may be in a bad spot doesn't change that, especially when she still declares that she "hates these people". The Bob edit clearly was intended positive, which by itself means his participation in the plot is excused by the editing if not in reality. I agree that in reality, it was a lousy thing to do, but that's not what the edit says. The same goes for Sugar. I can't make myself hold her P, but the editing clearly didn't hold her N. No, there's no turnaround on the theme. Corinne is attached at the hip with clearly negative Randy this episode. She's an underdog in reality, but in editing she's just the last obstacle to be overthrown. As for Bob, he is P, but he's also distanced from the other Kotas and has been so from the beginning.
Kitty Pryde1		#3211	[-]
Posts: 6513 (11/21/08 11:29 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Personally, I don't see why people aren't giving Randy an NN for this episode. I mean, he was an asshole the whole episode, bitched about the cookies, treated the other players like shit, and looked like a complete jackass when he played the fake idol. Hell, we got two voting confessionals calling him out as an asshole. This wasn't typical negativity. This was "This guy is the biggest asshole in Survivor history and he needs to die in a fire" editting. Also, Sugar is definitely N because even though she was shown in opposition to Randy, that doesn't make her positive. She was bitchy about the whole cookie thing and then pulled Bob in on her plot whichwasn't even strategy so much as it was complete humiliation. Hell, she was even making fun of Bob a little bit this episode. She's not M because there was no real positivity. Overall, I think Bob is the only one with positivity, and that's just because of his helicopter shot on Exile Island. Everyone else was either Negative (Randy, Corinne, Sugar) or neutral (Susie, Matty, Ken, Crystal).
scepticA		#3212	[-]
Posts: 1439 (11/21/08 11:43 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Kitty Pride, Randy wasn't NN because it was strategic. All the other NN's we've ever given were mindless thuggery or meanness (think Judd, the poster boy for NN). Randy's was caculated And the peculiar thing is that all of his rants were, in their own peculiar way, legitimate. Sugar WAS a bitch about the cookies, Crystal was a terrible performer and emotional to be around, Susie did betray the Kotas, and so on. It made his anger a lot more interesting - he deliberately and with calculationspushed people's specific buttons. The one that got me was when he told Matty he was whoring himself, after his condescending "you should be proud of 5th place... I mean, even Matty just shook his head and walked away. I thoroughly enjoyed Randy on Survivor - that is, his edit. NN just isn't right for what he did - unless you want to create a previously unused rating: CPNN. It's almost self-contradictory, but perhaps that makes as much sense as anything. You understood everything he did, you got into him and what he was thinking, he was strategic, and everything he could do to make his strategy work did, in fact, work. And he was an incrredible jerk in doing so. Randy was way OTTN.
BlakeB717		#3213	[-]
Posts: 1125 (11/21/08 11:45 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Let's take a look at Sugar Shack/Eve.......... Sugar: laughing at Bob's idol sceme He's probably like some... mad scientist!!! Sugar: I just want to make him spend him money more hyhena laughing Sugar: Is offered cookie, says no, then takes Randy's and gives it to Matty (note that Matty wasn't editted negatively at all from this... hmm...) Sugar: RANDY WANTED THAT COOKIE FOR HIMSELF! HE NEVER EVEN OFFERED! (lieslieslies) Sugar: All this over a cookie my Goooood x100000 (when we know he's being strategic, not over the cookie, and also find out he's insincere... remember SHE'S the reason the cookie bregade even happened) Sugar: The game, forget it about it right now, I just want Randy GONE! He's a mean trollish man! Sugar: Matty wants to keep Randy and is all strategy now...HMMM! Sugar: Tonight is going to be soooo good Bob rocks! I can't believe I got him to agree to this! Sugar: Tonight is gonna be the FUNKIEST NIGHT OF YOUR LIFE! Wait for it.......Wait for it...... Sugar: [RANDY] You are a MEAN MEAN MAN DIE ALONE gong L-L-L-L-OSAH! Sugar: shown basically lying of the floor from laughing Oh, and.... OTTN4
Kitty Pryde1		#3214	[-]
Posts: 6516 (11/21/08 11:53 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	scepticA wrote: Kitty Pride, Randy wasn't NN because it was strategic. All the other NN's we've ever given were mindless thuggery or meanness (think Judd, the poster boy for NN). Randy's was caculated And the peculiar thing is that all of his rants were, in their own peculiar way, legitimate. Sugar WAS a bitch about the cookies, Crystal was a terrible performer and emotional to be around, Susie did betray the Kotas, and so on. It made his anger a lot more interesting - he deliberately and with calculationspushed people's specific buttons. The one that got me was when he told Matty he was whoring himself, after his condescending "you should be proud of 5th place... I mean, even Matty just shook his head and walked away. I thoroughly enjoyed Randy on Survivor - that is, his edit. NN just isn't right for what he did - unless you want to create a previously unused rating: CPNN. It's almost self-contradictory, but perhaps that makes as much sense as anything. You understood everything he did, you got into him and what he was thinking, he was strategic, and everything he could do to make his strategy work did, in fact, work. And he was an incrredible jerk in doing so. Randy was way OTTN. Being an asshole as strategy is still being an asshole. Hell, his strategy was to be a complete dick. That means unlike people who were just assholes because that's who they are, which they easily could've editted Randy as being, we were shown that Randy was making a conscious decision to be a dick. To tell Susie to shut the fuck up. To start fights over the cookie multiple times. To act cocky and arrogant when he was completely duped. The episode was set up to make us HATE Randy and feel no remorse for him when he was humiliated with the fake idol. The fact that they didn't even set up a real decoy boot says something about the episode.
9RedWing19		#3215	[-]
Posts: 2304 (11/21/08 12:05 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	AllMenAreIslands wrote: astroline wrote: ...I think we were supposed to be laughing WITH Sugar & Crystal. A lot of others feel the same way, this is the one thread that doesn't. YES YES YES. Definitely. From the time Crystal started her voting confessional to the time Randy has his torch snuffed, there were 12 cuts to Sugar laughing / smirking / holding her head down to control her laughing / etc. IMO, that's way too many for laughing with her and Crystal. I think back to PI where Probst told JFP off for coming to TC drunk as being disrespectful to the soon-to-be-departed contestant. Had they used a more moderate number of cuts, I could agree with the argument that we were to laugh with them. But that is not what was shown.
Oowatanite		#3216	[-]
Posts: 6385 (11/21/08 12:18 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	getting real wrote: Bob tells Sugar about the fake idol... why? Sugar is almost confused, says maybe bob as some "mad scientist plan" (or something similar). Bob needed the Fang 5 to know that he had the 'idol' to remove any thoughts of targeting him. From his point of view, the only person who might potentially know his idol was fake was Sugar. So he chose to tell her but couldn't pretend it was real in case she had already found it. On the other hand, if she hadn't found it, she might coneivably think that he was only pretending it was fake when it was actually real. Genius strategy by Bob. Either way, it's beneficial for him. Genius strategy for Bob ? You GOTTA BE kidding us. Then bob willingly gives it away to Randy, at Sugar's urging. Why? To buy himself time and to curry favor with Sugar. We already saw him asking and receiving assurances frim Sugar about his future.. Congrats on sixth place, Bob ! Randy is humiliated. Sugar's loving it, Bob is stone-faced. Bob voted for Susie and will ensure that, if he makes it to the end, he won't lose Randy's and Corinne's vote because of his genius plan.... HE BETRAYED HIS ONLY ALLIES. HE AIN'T GETTING THEIR VOTES. And the only way Bob gets to F3 is if Probst gives him a message in a bottle that parachutes him into the F3.
AllMenAreIslands		#3217	[-]
Posts: 25778 (11/21/08 12:32 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	9RedWing19 wrote: AllMenAreIslands wrote: astroline wrote: ...I think we were supposed to be laughing WITH Sugar & Crystal. A lot of others feel the same way, this is the one thread that doesn't. YES YES YES. Definitely. From the time Crystal started her voting confessional to the time Randy has his torch snuffed, there were 12 cuts to Sugar laughing / smirking / holding her head down to control her laughing / etc. IMO, that's way too many for laughing with her and Crystal. Almost ready to concede you the point, RedWing. But what would have been an acceptable number of cuts? Why are 12 cuts to her "too many"?
colleenlover		#3218	[-]
Posts: 8804 (11/21/08 12:35 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	trying not to be a dumb fan, but I really think this was all meant to be just satisfaction for the "jerk' character to get his comeuppance.
Oowatanite		#3219	[-]
Posts: 6386 (11/21/08 12:44 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	TheLurkerSpeaks wrote: I actually didn't enjoy this episode all that much, and that surprised me a bit because I am very glad that Randy got voted out. I think the reality is intruding on the edit a bit. What Sugar (and Bob) did was actually pretty cruel and unnecessary, and like Susie, I actually felt sorry for Randy by episode end. But that isn't the editing intent at all! The editors played this as a straightforward "laugh at Randy's expense" episode. There was no suspense and little tension. As much as I disliked Randy, the gloating about his added humiliation was a bit much. I agree with the bolded parts. Yet I disagree with your lack of Ns for Sugar and Crystal. It was "cruel and unnecessary" and the "gloating was a bit much", yet Sugar and Crystal (and Bob) were not negative ? Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. Corinne - MORN. I'm not seeing the CP. Sure she talked strategy with Randy and discussed the importance of immunity, but where's the complexity, where's the choice, where's the internal conflict. And sorry, she's still N. We're meant to laugh at her almost as much as at Randy. Corinne is still N ? Just because she was N in previous episodes ? And we were meant to laugh at her almost as much as Randy ? Really ? Sugar - MOR. That's probably not accurate. Is she OTT? She's certainly not portrayed as an OTTN villain (except in the minds of Randy and Corinne fans) despite the cruel reality of her plan A single OTTN rating so far this season does NOT equal "being the OTTN villain". Eliza got some OTTNs in Vanuatu. Does this mean that Eliza was an "OTTN villain" that season ? Sugar was AN OBVIOUS OTTN in this episode. but neither can I get behind OTTP precisely because her plan was cruel (and she shared the wrong in the auction cookie incident). I don't think that even the Sugarites believe she was OTTP this episode , so I don't know why you brought this rating up. Crystal - UTR. Her signature moment of the episode was her loud TC vote. I'm sorry, Randy fans. He may not have actually deserved the idol trickery, but he certainly did deserve Crystal's voting rant. She clearly wanted him to know she was voting for him. Considering their past history, this was not an N moment at all. Did Kelly deserve Crystal's voting rant ? Did Marcus ? Did Ace ? I'm sorry TLS, but most of your ratings are tied to the reasoning that "Randy deserved it". Randy was OTTN so Sugar is not. Randy was OTTN so Crystal is not N. Despite your misgivings, Crystal has been a NEGATIVE character this entire season. Most of her TCs have been purposely negative. Most of her voting confessionals have been purposely negative. She's a chronic complainer. She's useless at challenges. She's gotten in fights with pretty much all of her tribemates. She's a bitch.
colleenlover		#3220	[-]
Posts: 8805 (11/21/08 12:49 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	*She's a chronic complainer.*

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