S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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ColonelBird		#3221	[-]
Posts: 918 (11/21/08 1:23 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I agree with Crystal being a negative presence this season. I think the edgic ratings clearly support this. To add insult to injury, her athletic prowess so far is en par with that of Jan or Kim Johnson. Actually, Kim J. is more athletic.
TheLurkerSpeaks		#3222	[-]
Posts: 1416 (11/21/08 1:26 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oo, I said what I said because I believe it. The actions of Sugar and Bob were cruel in reality, but the editing was in expectation of the audience going along with them and laughing at Randy. We're analyzing the editing here, not passing moral judgements, and the editing was on Sugar's side whether we individually like it or not. Yes, Corinne was still N. "I hate these people." And she was just as snookered by the fake idol as Randy. Again, we were meant to laugh at Randy and by extension Corinne as well. OTTN is for those who are being painted as villains whether in a single episode or over the course of the season. Sugar was not painted by the editing as a villain in this episode, however much we may disapprove of her actions, so no, she isn't an obvious OTTN. (I rarely provided ratings in Vanuatu so I can't claim credit for Eliza's OTTN's. There's a good chance I may have disagreed with them.) I listed OTTP because it is an arguable rating (at least as much as OTTN). I don't use OTT - neutral because I don't think OTT means anything without tone. So it really came down to MOR or CP, and while I'm not sure of MOR, I like it better than CP. Yes, Kelly deserved wrath from Crystal, but I believe Crystal only gave her the finger (and it wasn't shown until the credits). Marcus' arrogance did justify Crystal's statement that he wasn't the Kota god. (This was hardly a rant by the way.) Yes, Ace was shown to deserve what he got as well, at least by the editing. Besides being loud, there was nothing about Crystal's voting speech against Randy that stands out as unusual (at least not in the version that we were shown). Face it, Oo. You've decided you don't like Crystal, but almost all of what you object to has been presented either neutrally or in the best possible light when it made sense to show it (especially when it will likely come up again in the final TC). She will have to defend her occasionally surly attitude and failures in challenges in front of the jury. The challenges don't really matter in the end, especially when she's already pretty much owned up to them ("batting zero"). The attitude, while occasionally negative, has at least always been shown with her point of view explained, which has not been the case for players like Kelly.
Phoenix1269		#3223	[-]
Posts: 311 (11/21/08 1:53 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	ncassaro wrote: OnlyTheHunter wrote: I'll rewatch for the rest, but Crystal's voting confessional, to me, was intentionally done as a coup de grace (spelling???) to Randy, and I cracked up to. Michael Spelling correct, just don't pronounce it incorrectly like Ace. it's french... the correct spelling is: coup de grâce ;) (sorry... been proof-reading a lot recently!!!)
Phoenix1269		#3224	[-]
Posts: 312 (11/21/08 2:05 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	menelaus wrote: Sugar was clearly an N. Seriously, what she did was just cruel, sadistic, and unnecessary. She INTENTIONALLY made Randy spend more money at the auction on his beer, and we even got the shot of her saying "I was just making him pay more," she was laughing about bob and exile island, and she convinced Bob to play that really unnecessary trick on Randy. Overall, she was a really, really bad bitch. With respect to the whole "Randy deserved it" argument, I really don't think that is relevant here. A lot of the arguments and rivalries this season feel like Boston Rob/John from season four, where the two hated each other, but we were never given a "good" guy. We were just told that both were really, really mean (Rob was blatantly homophobic and John blindsided Gabe) and that they both deserved to go. Here we have Randy being an overall bitch, but Sugar, who was once pretty positive, now has basically stooped to his level. If we go on the Good vs. Evil thing, the only "good" people we have left are Bob, Matty, and to an extent Susie and Ken. None of them have been unnecessarily (like Sugar and her fake idol ploy, Corrine and her wanting to stab people in the face, and Crystal with her vote). What seemed really interesting was that when Sugar was dealing with Bob, she was doing it with a greater plan in mind. It seemed like she wants to use him later on to gain some momentum (possibly get Corrine and Bob to vote out Crystal or Susie next time around?). Given the fact that they showed Randy reasoning with Matty, this doesn't seem unreasonable. With the fake idol. Have the editors forgotten that Marcus never set foot on Fang? This has already been pointed out. He could never have hidden it at Fang. The only way this is at all plausible is if the camps were relatively close to each other, Marcus knew the approximate middle point, and he hid it there, which seems very, very unlikely. So, what the hell is going on here? Nevertheless, it does still feel like Ken has the winner edit. And we did get that quote from Randy about how much Ken has "grown up," which might mean that he ends up giving the gamer his vote at the end to reward him for becoming a better man. Charlie would probably vote for Ken too, since Crystal has been so excessively mean and he doesn't yet know why he was targeted (brilliant play, stupid reasons), and so would Marcus (Ken didn't do anything to get Marcus booted, Crystal and Susie did). That is already 3/7 vote that are his if Bob and Corrine don't make it. His numbers are looking ridiculous if he doesn't get overthrown next week. And if he blindsides Sugar next week, and Bob and Corrine play the "2nd idol," which may or may not exist, then he has won. If the preview is accurate, and if it is true... then i think Marcus hid the idol at Kota... and Bob's "african safari" (complete with the grandiose cliff / helicopter shot) was actually a trek back to the Kota Camp. The man is a smart cookie, and by this time, there has been enough wandering around for challenges, etc, as well as having a map (the map to exile & the exile clue map)... I'll bet he figured out where he was in relation to Exile and went back to Kota. Heck, the main map probably has the Kota & Fang locations in realtion to exle on it already!
Francois40		#3225	[-]
Posts: 2623 (11/21/08 2:23 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Bob? M. He had the mountain top scene with soaring music, then did this to Randy. In fact, this might be a poster-child M edit in years hence - an obvious and clear-cut soaring OTTP moment, and later a nasty, inexplicable N moment when he knowingly let an ally be humiliated, with no explanation given It was self-preservation...I don't see any N in his actions. That is, he's telling Corinne that the the idol he gave Randy was the idol he thought Marcus had hidden. He shows Corinne the empty cloth to tell her that's how he found it, that's why he thought it was real, that's why he gave it to Randy to use in good faith. So, where did the cloth come from? I do agree that his story in the preview is an explanation for the fake idol, but would he really have the forethought to create a "cloth" for it as well? This is getting all so Agatha-Christie-like! Regarding general Edgic for this episode, I would put less stock in this Ep than in most--it obviously was a one-note Episode, "the story of how Sugar PWNED Randy". If other people's story arcs suffered, there's an easy explanation why.
Trixiego		#3226	[-]
Posts: 15822 (11/21/08 2:36 PM) Kiss me, I'm Adminish Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Nice to see Veronica enter the hurly burly of edgic turbulence... :smooch Some edgicers are my favorite people :-) I got what you say now re: the preview. I misunderstood the wording.
Brazil Luvs Ami		#3227	[-]
Posts: 148 (11/21/08 2:44 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Has someone paid attention to Kenny during the auction? Jeff said more than 3 times "Kenny is giving up"... I don't think the editors would include that if Ken was the winner... I still believe that Matty is the better option, he is always spared form negativity: Early on when Kenny, Crystal and GC were shown as losers and now, when Sugar was shown a real bitch, not what Corinne even thinks a bitch is...
chapera rocks		#3228	[-]
Posts: 9862 (11/21/08 3:02 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Kitty Pryde1 wrote: Personally, I don't see why people aren't giving Randy an NN for this episode. I mean, he was an asshole the whole episode, bitched about the cookies, treated the other players like shit, and looked like a complete jackass when he played the fake idol. Hell, we got two voting confessionals calling him out as an asshole. This wasn't typical negativity. This was "This guy is the biggest asshole in Survivor history and he needs to die in a fire" editting. Also, Sugar is definitely N because even though she was shown in opposition to Randy, that doesn't make her positive. She was bitchy about the whole cookie thing and then pulled Bob in on her plot whichwasn't even strategy so much as it was complete humiliation. Hell, she was even making fun of Bob a little bit this episode. She's not M because there was no real positivity. Overall, I think Bob is the only one with positivity, and that's just because of his helicopter shot on Exile Island. Everyone else was either Negative (Randy, Corinne, Sugar) or neutral (Susie, Matty, Ken, Crystal). X
TheLurkerSpeaks		#3229	[-]
Posts: 1417 (11/21/08 3:03 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Francois40 wrote: Regarding general Edgic for this episode, I would put less stock in this Ep than in most--it obviously was a one-note Episode, "the story of how Sugar PWNED Randy". If other people's story arcs suffered, there's an easy explanation why. I tend to agree with this. The only real exception is probably Sugar's comments on Matty, which either serve as foreshadowing or doubt for one or the other. I think the editors saw this as an opportunity to do the ultimate "feel good" villain comeuppance episode with the way Randy helped in his own setup. In theory, it should be, but the reality is a little ugly. It probably doesn't help that Randy's vilest acts were probably ones they couldn't show on television in good taste.
Kitty Pryde1		#3230	[-]
Posts: 6519 (11/21/08 3:24 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Ratings After A Second Watch: Bob - CP(OTT)P3 - He wasn't given a negative tinge in attitude so much as he was simply being reported as giving Randy the fake idol. Thus no N. The P comes from his time on Exile, appreciating the wonder of Gabon. Corinne - CPN3 - We got into her head about she feels about the game at this point, but she was definitely negative in some of her actions. Crystal - OTT(N)2 - She was one-note in this episode again, complete with her loud vote and the reaction shots of people sitting back at the TC area. She was oversimplified as hating Randy. Plain and simple. The N comes from whether you think she was negative enough in her laughing and hatred of Randy to earn an N. Ken - UTR3 - He didn't speak a lot, but he got a lot of facetime and time to talk about things during the episode, and given how much focus the other players took up, UTR is better for him. Matty - MORN3 - I was originally going to give him a neutral rating, but after rewatching the episode and specifically the scene where he talks about voting out Bob, he just seemed negative in that scene. There's this one shot where it's like he's angrily yelling at Sugar about why Bob needs to go home. He's right about it, but it's not a positive image at all. Randy - CPNN5 - We got into Randy's head a LOT and saw his strategy and thoughts this episode. But at the same time, he was EXTREMELY negative. Like if he were being made a fool of, that would be N. If he was just an asshole, THAT would be N. But the combination of the two makes Randy NN. Sugar - OTTN4 - Much like Crystal, her entire edit was based on hatred of Randy, and she was editted to seem like a bitch about it. Yes, we were supposed to be happy that Randy looked like a fool, but this episode did not make Sugar look good in ANY way. Susie - UTR2 - Not a whole lot from her, aside from the auction and the tribal council confrontation, so she was UTR. Winner/s: Ken - This was a great episode for cooldown and hiding of the winner. The one problem was how BLATANTLY obvious the recap was in his favor, plus there's really NO doubt in his edit at this point. That's what worries me about picking Ken as my winner pick. Matty - Matty is another good pick (as much as I'd hate for it to be him after Todd and Parvati). He's got good numbers and I really had him on my winner's list with Marcus and Randy for quite some time. But too many times we've been shown as him not knowing what he's really doing out there. That's the thing that bothers me about his edit. Plus, Matty has no real end-game ties. So at this point, both guys have flaws, but Ken and Matty could both theoretically win. None of the others can.
ncassaro		#3231	[-]
Posts: 313 (11/21/08 3:40 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Brazil Luvs Ami wrote: Everybody is kind a blind with Kenny being winner, that it seems you're aonly paying atention for the good edit he's receiving, however what really called my atention was Jeff's words to Kenny in the auction: 'Ken is giving up'. "And Kenny gives up again', 'And again Kenny is going to give up', and a lot more of this... That's not good... Ratings: Bob - MORM3 Corinne - CP3 Crystal - MORN2 Ken - UTR2 Matty - MOR3 Randy - OTTN5 Sugar - OTTN4 Susie - UTR2 Winner: I'm sticking with Matty, because during the 'Marcus wins, no one else has a shot', I never eliminated him and he was my second pick... Matty looks so good edgically, and logically. He's going to be in the final 5 with people he can beat in challenges. BUT this episode we got our first hint of, "Matty's playing for 5th place." If this is repeated next episode, we should take it as fact, because this is around the time they started saying it about Denise.
JaMalle		#3232	[-]
Posts: 4331 (11/21/08 3:45 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	chapera rocks wrote: Kitty Pryde1 wrote: Personally, I don't see why people aren't giving Randy an NN for this episode. I mean, he was an asshole the whole episode, bitched about the cookies, treated the other players like shit, and looked like a complete jackass when he played the fake idol. Hell, we got two voting confessionals calling him out as an asshole. This wasn't typical negativity. This was "This guy is the biggest asshole in Survivor history and he needs to die in a fire" editting. Also, Sugar is definitely N because even though she was shown in opposition to Randy, that doesn't make her positive. She was bitchy about the whole cookie thing and then pulled Bob in on her plot whichwasn't even strategy so much as it was complete humiliation. Hell, she was even making fun of Bob a little bit this episode. She's not M because there was no real positivity. Overall, I think Bob is the only one with positivity, and that's just because of his helicopter shot on Exile Island. Everyone else was either Negative (Randy, Corinne, Sugar) or neutral (Susie, Matty, Ken, Crystal). X X I didn't take any notes, but I feel compelled to share my general opinion. Randy - OTTNN This was a clear NN here y'all. He told Susie to stfu for crying out loud! It's the capstone of Randy's edit in Gabon. Sugar - MORN This is not the Sugar I'm used to seeing, it seemed like the Sugar Charlie spoke of in his interviews, and it was not fun watching her like it usually is. We didn't get @%%*! or sweet heartedness. Before, we were seeing reasons why people underestimated her and could potentially vote for her in the end for outsmarting them, but now I think we're seeing the reason why she's going to lose: because she's a bitch. Bob- CPP I felt truly bad for the guy this episode, but he's trying to play the game while at the same time appreciating this adventure for what it's worth. Susie- MOR she was involved. Kenny- MOR I kinda forget Kenny. I prob only say MOR because of past edit and how much we've spoken about him, which means maybe he's UTR? Still, after looking at the "previously on segment" (which btw has been significantly more significant this season lol), he's definitely being set up as a winner. That segment was all about putting doubt onto Kenny's winning chances. Corrine- CPM she got the underdog attention, but she's STILL a villain. Crystal- OTT duh all we got from Crystal was shots of her and Kenny together, bitching about Randy, and her usual outburst at TC (voting this time). Matty- MOR He seemed pivotal. Winner options: Corrine: her supporters shouldn't move. She got the edit she needed if she's going to be the last of her alliance to survive. Right now, her story can take off on a Danni route, except a lot darker than Danni's story (due to Corrine's negativity and attitude). Will vegence actually be hers? Based on my Edgic analysis, she's been toast for a while now so I doubt it, but she is one of my favorites, so I have hope. Kenny: His supporters shouldn't budge either. He got all the doubt he needed now that he's the leader of the majority. Until those three idols are gone (two now) Kenny has all the necessary tools to win. It's a done deal. Matty: His supporters also shouldn't budge. lol He got the necessary doubt as well. The minority thinks he needs to make a move against the majority. The majority (Sugar included) thinks he's starting to play the game. His story will go in one of two ways: Randy/Corrine will be right - Matty needs to make a move and he doesn't, ending in his defeat (editing is on Randy/Corrine's side on this matter with Sugar's anti-Matty confessional during boot deliberation) OR Matty will stop "whoring" himself out to the people he doesn't like and use the minority to propel him to the finals and win. I think the former happens... My pick is Kenny. I respect the cases for both Matty and Corrine. Corrine, I think is a lot harder to defend though. If I were hardcore doing Edgic this season, everyone would be eliminated sans Matty and Kenny. Sugar/Crystal/Susie are obvious losers to whichever of Matt/Kenny they face. Two of them will make the end of the game, but I don't know which. No two adams in eden right? The Eves will not win in this case. For the Corrine supporters (stick in there y'all) Corrine's "idk wanna be the only girl" could come to frution too with her facing two of those people in the end. How that could happen in real life, idk, but Edgically, you can make a case. That's all from Mail Mail for right now. lol Keep up the good work in this thread!
cindidindi76		#3233	[-]
Posts: 13501 (11/21/08 5:02 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	With the fake idol. Have the editors forgotten that Marcus never set foot on Fang? This has already been pointed out. He could never have hidden it at Fang. The only way this is at all plausible is if the camps were relatively close to each other, Marcus knew the approximate middle point, and he hid it there, which seems very, very unlikely. So, what the hell is going on here? Have you forgotten that Marcus and Bob both went back to Kota after the non-merge? Bob didn't say it was hidden at Fang. If he's telling the truth (which I really doubt), it would have been buried at Kota and he would have dug it up after Marcus got voted off.
craig		#3234	[-]
Posts: 14339 (11/21/08 5:59 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	If anyone deserves a double N, it's Sugar. She was more negative than Natalie in the Jason boot episode (who didn't really deserve double N). My impressions are in accord with Probst in his blog too. I said, "I felt badly for Randy getting played at tribal council like a banjo at a small town country fair. ... So why did I feel bad? Maybe there is just something about Randy that I can relate to and sympathize with. Oh, he will hate me saying it like that. My friend Serena thinks the answer lies with Sugar and the way she handled herself as I read the votes. "Not cool." (I think she might be right. Serena is almost always right.) That uncontrollable laugh that came from such a deep place inside Sugar was so uncomfortable that I almost wanted to pull the votes out, rearrange them, rewind the tape, and vote Sugar out.
BlakeB717		#3235	[-]
Posts: 1126 (11/21/08 6:04 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Well I can speak for friends of mine who are loyal followers. Sugar has been their favorite since the start, and all of them told me that they were let down by her last night. One of my teachers is a huge SURVIVOR fan and he always says something about it after Thursday. Apparently he too felt bad for Randy and that Sugar and Crystal were cows. We have to remember that SUCKS is a young, mean, conniving, hateful place ;) that gets its laughs from things all evil. Just because everyone on this board was LOVING means they were meant to be loved. The target audience is middle aged Christian women pretty much. Last Edited By: BlakeB717 11/21/08 6:07 PM. Edited 1 times.
chad6		#3236	[-]
Posts: 1975 (11/21/08 6:18 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Everyone can come in here and tell us how their "casual viewer friends" think about a castaway. Tales about what casual viewers think should have no bearing on Edgic ratings.
BlakeB717		#3237	[-]
Posts: 1127 (11/21/08 6:20 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I completely agree. I was pointing that out because a lot of people have said, in response to Sugar NOT being N (which is ridiculous!) that Edgic is the only forum on Sucks that seems disgusted by Sugar's behaviour, and that we've overanalyzing the editors intent, which was supposedly positive?
chad6		#3238	[-]
Posts: 1976 (11/21/08 6:24 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I agree. Sugar deserves an N. And I am a huge Sugar fan.
getting real		#3239	[-]
Posts: 1365 (11/21/08 6:24 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	One of the scenes they left out is also interesting to contemplate in the Sugar debate. In that scene, Matty describes Sugar as 'good-hearted'. Interesting that this was left out. Did the editors want us to see Randy's demise as a pay-off for all his negativity? Sure... Is Sugar's edit evolving pace towards a Femme Fatale persona? No doubt...
Apollo Italiano		#3240	[-]
Posts: 209 (11/21/08 6:29 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Kitty Pryde1 wrote: Corinne - CPN3 - We got into her head about she feels about the game at this point, but she was definitely negative in some of her actions. Randy - CPNN5 - We got into Randy's head a LOT and saw his strategy and thoughts this episode. But at the same time, he was EXTREMELY negative. Like if he were being made a fool of, that would be N. If he was just an asshole, THAT would be N. But the combination of the two makes Randy NN. I agree with both of these ratings, and I don't think they've been popping up on people's ratings lists as often as I thought. Just to back up KP: Corinne. The CP is duh. The N is the tricky part, but I'm going for it. She was associated with super negative Randy and said that she hates everyone. Add that to being a cocky, arrogant fool leading to and during Tribal Council . A plucky underdog? No, I think she was portrayed as a malicious player bitterly trying to pick up the pieces of an alliance that was (justly?) busted. I mean, I could see neutral, but there was virtually no attempt at trying to distance her from Randy, and I think guilt (or negativity) by association is apparent this episode. CPN for Corinne. Randy. See, I don't think he was simplied, and I don't see the OTT rating. His head was bust right open (not like in episode one, I mean figuratively); we saw his plan and how he carried through with it, in fact, there was a segment during Tribal Council where there was a question as to whether Randy was playing the game in character, followed by a Randy smirk (man, I wish I could screen cap). That mystery there really seems to portray Randy in a thoughtful light and I don't think it was over the top. However, it doesn't stop his negativity, which was there. Everyone bashed on Randy, everyone (except maybe Corinne). Randy admitted to being a jerk, and he acted like one. Plus, this episode was just so Randy-heavy and during all that, I can't think of one neutral or positive thing he did the entire time. So, as odd as it is, I stand by the CPNN for Randy. My complete ratings that seem to just fall in the middle of everyone else's: Bob - MORP3 Corinne - CPN3 Crystal - UTR(N)2 or OTT(N)2 Ken - UTR2 Matty - MOR3 Randy - CPNN5 Sugar - OTTN4 Susie - UTR2 I'm still very undecided on Crystal. She has been getting odd edits this season, and once again, I'm unsure of what to call it as.

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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