S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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Kirblar		#4681	[-]
Posts: 7112 (12/14/08 11:34 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	How do you edit a guy who wins due to another contestant having massive, massive Daddy issues and who has no strategic sense?
Francois40		#4682	[-]
Posts: 2678 (12/14/08 11:41 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Worst three jury performances ever !!!!!! More so "worst editing of jury questions, ever!" I can't wait for someone to come in here and tell us what was REALLY said instead of those watered-down snippets we got tossed our way (few of which really had any "roots" earlier in the season, which used to be the fun of the Final TC). Seriously? Congrats on picking Bob? No one picked Bob until there were 5 fucking people left. FIVE! That's a 20% chance just by guessing. Say I'm remembering wrong and it was 6 people left. That's still a 17% chance. This is the exact sort of thing Edgic has gotten and will continue to get flack for: congratulations when none are honestly due (no personal offense meant). Being the first person to pick something means nothing if the chances were so high in the first place - anyone could have done it. Like I said before, why not pick an Edgically unpopular choice? If you happen to get it right (regardless of when you do it or what the chances of doing it were), people will congratulate you. Again, no personal offense meant and I KNOW people will jump all over me for this. But I see no reason for anyone to be claiming any sort of victory here. There are always a few who are more concerned with patting themselves on the back and boasting than they are in the group consensus finding the winner (which it at least seemed like was what this thread was about when I first joined Edgic--we were all on the same team, looking for the answer CSI style, not this "HA!!! I got it right, you didn't, loser!!" gloating that a few (I suspect younger) members of this board tend to proclaim. It's not a contest, is it?) I think this season even reinforces some old guidelines (INV rule and ep.1 confessionals more important than ever). But actually, I don't believe the "1st episode confessional" has ever been codified, so it's not an "old" guideline (though I definitely believe it should be--the same time they take OUT that tired (and wrong) "Known Pair" guideline). Side note: I am REALLY hating the "Sprint $100K" or whatever it's called, whose entire purpose goes back to S8 and a way to hand Rupert a million. OTTP edits have a HUGE advantage over the others, and edits shouldn't determine the winner of anything. Not to mention that I think the winner should be exempt from that prize.
BlakeB717		#4683	[-]
Posts: 1246 (12/14/08 11:41 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I think we have to accept that some people just hate edgic and want it to die. Ignore them. No need for fighting. Edgic is a fun pass time, not an occupation or a life.
Casey333		#4684	[-]
Posts: 588 (12/14/08 11:42 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	There are always a few who are more concerned with patting themselves on the back and boasting than they are in the group consensus finding the winner (which it at least seemed like was what this thread was about when I first joined Edgic--we were all on the same team, looking for the answer CSI style, not this "HA!!! I got it right, you didn't, loser!!" gloating that a few (I suspect younger) members of this board tend to proclaim. It's not a contest, is it?) X
Us Kids Know		#4685	[-]
Posts: 9454 (12/14/08 11:44 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oowatanite wrote: Astro is just a troll dressed up as an edgicer. Aren't you in spoilers, like, constantly? I'm not one of the "omg all edgic people read spoilers" people, but I know you do all the time. And Astroline whines much less than you do, in general.
fat little fingers		#4686	[-]
Posts: 5793 (12/14/08 11:45 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Is it just me or didn't ALL of you pick Marcus to win? Which one came closer to winning? Yeah. Case closed. Thanks, swim. A good reminder to all the brawling idiots who are feeling like they're a little less idiotic than that last guy who posted. "Geez, I had good reasons for being wrong, but that guy is just an idiot!" I have this kum-bie-ya opening post in which I welcome all to participate in Edgic. That we're a "flame-free zone"... Well that last bit is a bit of a stretch, isn't it. Let's say that we are pretty-much a flame free zone and when it gets too hot, we lean on people to take it elsewhere. As Eliza can tell you, you have to come into an open board like this with some thick skin and your street clothes on. That said, I'd like it if the name-calling was left out of the discussion. As swim points out, "I have found the idiot! And he is us!" (With a nod to J. Caesar and Pogo.) Last Edited By: fat little fingers 12/14/08 11:48 PM. Edited 1 times.
NickF227		#4687	[-]
Posts: 5435 (12/14/08 11:46 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	fat little fingers wrote: Although helicopter shots seem to be important. OMG! Actual continuity from past shows!! Lol. Okay that makes two: Opening confessional and chopper shot. I mean, seriously, when I saw Bob's helicopter shots it was like..."Okay, Bob CAN'T WIN. It's like...wut? No. Nononononononono." So lame.
Kitty Pryde1		#4688	[-]
Posts: 7299 (12/14/08 11:47 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Francois40 wrote: Worst three jury performances ever !!!!!! More so "worst editing of jury questions, ever!" I can't wait for someone to come in here and tell us what was REALLY said instead of those watered-down snippets we got tossed our way (few of which really had any "roots" earlier in the season, which used to be the fun of the Final TC). Seriously? Congrats on picking Bob? No one picked Bob until there were 5 fucking people left. FIVE! That's a 20% chance just by guessing. Say I'm remembering wrong and it was 6 people left. That's still a 17% chance. This is the exact sort of thing Edgic has gotten and will continue to get flack for: congratulations when none are honestly due (no personal offense meant). Being the first person to pick something means nothing if the chances were so high in the first place - anyone could have done it. Like I said before, why not pick an Edgically unpopular choice? If you happen to get it right (regardless of when you do it or what the chances of doing it were), people will congratulate you. Again, no personal offense meant and I KNOW people will jump all over me for this. But I see no reason for anyone to be claiming any sort of victory here. There are always a few who are more concerned with patting themselves on the back and boasting than they are in the group consensus finding the winner (which it at least seemed like was what this thread was about when I first joined Edgic--we were all on the same team, looking for the answer CSI style, not this "HA!!! I got it right, you didn't, loser!!" gloating that a few (I suspect younger) members of this board tend to proclaim. It's not a contest, is it?) I think this season even reinforces some old guidelines (INV rule and ep.1 confessionals more important than ever). But actually, I don't believe the "1st episode confessional" has ever been codified, so it's not an "old" guideline (though I definitely believe it should be--the same time they take OUT that tired (and wrong) "Known Pair" guideline). Side note: I am REALLY hating the "Sprint $100K" or whatever it's called, whose entire purpose goes back to S8 and a way to hand Rupert a million. OTTP edits have a HUGE advantage over the others, and edits shouldn't determine the winner of anything. Not to mention that I think the winner should be exempt from that prize. Aw c'mon. I was completely wrong on Peih-Gee and Cirie. Just let me have my moment...please...
AbbyGirl		#4689	[-]
Posts: 19 (12/14/08 11:50 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I feel kind of bad guys....nasty posters here get replies, I post and no one even notices or says a word. Okay, maybe this will be my last post. I just wanted to say Bob didn't come out of no where completely, but he was UTR. I did have Bob as a pick in the beginning with all the other Onions. People said the Onions did not matter after Marcus left and they started going one by one. I could not figure out why their alliance seemed to be so important in the first episodes if they all left before the finale. I said that here and either did not get a reply or was told I was wrong in so many words. So Edgic needs to look at the first episodes not only for who is featured individually speaking in the first fifteen minutes, but also what groups form and why is there focus on them if they seem to be doomed later? Red alert....one of them just might get to the end and do a "Danni". I'm just sorry a few people here seemed a bit mad at me when I mentioned a chance of one the Onions winning. That was when only Corinne, Randy and Bob were left. I kept going back to the first half and how it was edited, I saw Kenny lying on the ground acting lazy with GC and Crystal, Randy commented how lazy they were... Matty also implied the same thing. Kota was the well run tribe, Fang was negative most of the time. The theme was good vs evil, the Onions were featured as good (IMO) in the beginning. I do not think it was retarded at all to see an Onion winning Survivor. Yes it was Bob and not Corinne, but still Corinne could have won in such a crazy season as this has been....except for the evil thing of course! Edgic needs to look a little bit further than what they have been, not ridicule other's picks (as a few tend to do, not all) and pay attention to the Danni's and Bob's from now on. I found it hard to believe Ken was the pick here after the last three or four weeks, I saw him as a bit conniving and "snake like" in the first half even. I wanted to like him, but his edit just went downhill after the rat comparison, and that was by Ken himself. I was taken in by Edgic, so I give credit to those who talked me into Ken winning. He did fit some of the guidelines, but there is more to Survivor's editing than the guidelines. I am just so glad Ken lost and Bob won! And I still like Corinne, she was a fun character to watch as well as Randy. I'm a married female so no, it was not a crush at all! And it's not nice to call others retarded for giving their opinions even if you think they are way off. Anyone can be way off here, even the most intelligent posters as we have seen this season.
James Barber		#4690	[-]
Posts: 14770 (12/14/08 11:55 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	How do you edit a guy who wins due to another contestant having massive, massive Daddy issues and who has no strategic sense? Just play up his sympathetic moments or his quirks, instead of ignoring him for half the season. They can always find a way to show a winner if they want to. I think they just preferred showing those who made more of a production of themselves, even though they ended up sinking in too much repetition of some of the other players and some of the other ugliness going on. I knew Marcus wouldn't win, and I knew Ken probably wouldn't win, but based on the edit, I did think Matty would win. I should have known otherwise, because of that quote about Matt being too trusting. I give the editors credit for how they edited a number of the players (Ken's edit is basically a long, slow tribute to his own self-destruction), but I wish they'd done a little more with Bob.
dissimilis		#4691	[-]
Posts: 6373 (12/15/08 12:01 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I think they definitely would have played Bob up a bit more if he hadn't had such a horrid final tribal council...if they built Bob up more than they did in terms of game moves how would they be able to explain that: a) He flat out said he neither Outwitted or Outplayed any of the jury b) Admitted that he was a coat tail rider. It would have made no sense to edit Bob up and then have him say those things at final tribal. I think the editors worked with what they had with Bob, and his hideous final tribal really set up what kind of edit he would be able to have.
fat little fingers		#4692	[-]
Posts: 5795 (12/15/08 12:05 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I could not figure out why their alliance seemed to be so important in the first episodes if they all left before the finale. So Edgic needs to look at the first episodes not only for who is featured individually speaking in the first fifteen minutes, but also what groups form and why is there focus on them if they seem to be doomed later? AbbyGirl, these are both great points. I'd add that we were all dumbfounded as to how the winner could come from Fang, when it had been so relentlessly trashed from every angle, week after week. Well we got our answer: the winner wasn't from "loser", "lazy", "quitter", "stupid" Fang. btw: It was hard to read your post, because of the unbroken string of sentences. Broken into a few paragraphs would help.
Green Coffee		#4693	[-]
Posts: 132 (12/15/08 12:06 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	AbbyGirl wrote: I feel kind of bad guys....nasty posters here get replies, I post and no one even notices or says a word. Okay, maybe this will be my last post. I just wanted to say Bob didn't come out of no where completely, but he was UTR. I did have Bob as a pick in the beginning with all the other Onions. People said the Onions did not matter after Marcus left and they started going one by one. I could not figure out why their alliance seemed to be so important in the first episodes if they all left before the finale. I said that here and either did not get a reply or was told I was wrong in so many words. So Edgic needs to look at the first episodes not only for who is featured individually speaking in the first fifteen minutes, but also what groups form and why is there focus on them if they seem to be doomed later? Red alert....one of them just might get to the end and do a "Danni". I'm just sorry a few people here seemed a bit mad at me when I mentioned a chance of one the Onions winning. That was when only Corinne, Randy and Bob were left. I kept going back to the first half and how it was edited, I saw Kenny lying on the ground acting lazy with GC and Crystal, Randy commented how lazy they were... Matty also implied the same thing. Kota was the well run tribe, Fang was negative most of the time. The theme was good vs evil, the Onions were featured as good (IMO) in the beginning. I do not think it was retarded at all to see an Onion winning Survivor. Yes it was Bob and not Corinne, but still Corinne could have won in such a crazy season as this has been....except for the evil thing of course! Edgic needs to look a little bit further than what they have been, not ridicule other's picks (as a few tend to do, not all) and pay attention to the Danni's and Bob's from now on. I found it hard to believe Ken was the pick here after the last three or four weeks, I saw him as a bit conniving and "snake like" in the first half even. I wanted to like him, but his edit just went downhill after the rat comparison, and that was by Ken himself. I was taken in by Edgic, so I give credit to those who talked me into Ken winning. He did fit some of the guidelines, but there is more to Survivor's editing than the guidelines. I am just so glad Ken lost and Bob won! And I still like Corinne, she was a fun character to watch as well as Randy. I'm a married female so no, it was not a crush at all! And it's not nice to call others retarded for giving their opinions even if you think they are way off. Anyone can be way off here, even the most intelligent posters as we have seen this season. In retrospect, what you're saying makes total sense. Bob's edit is "Danni like" in the sense that they had to craft something out of what they were given - a guy who basically admitted to being a coattail rider and strategic nobody. My only concern with this is that it handcuffs Edgic in terms of making eliminations. After this season (and S11), I think there have been 2 major winner edits in Survivor history: Type A edits and Type B edits. Type A edits fit the Edgic guidelines and are most common. Most winners allow for this type of story to be crafted, which appears to be the preferred story of the editors. Type B edits are the Danni/Bob edits. Low key UTR players who either don't make a lot of strategic moves or do so in a way that is not amenable to TV. These are not the preferred edits of the editors and only appear given specific situational constraints. The issue is that, given these types of edits that are observed, it is extremely difficult to eliminate anyone. Those who fit Type A guidelines would violate Type B guidelines. Those who fit Type B guidelines would be eliminated by Type A guidelines. Given a season in which the winner edit type is unknown, we must now be extremely conservative in eliminating players and possibly being open to having two seperate winner picks. Not the happiest of choices, but it allows for the lowest probability of falsely "calling it." Further complicating matters is the hypothetical Type C edit. What other situational constraints on the edits exist that could produce a 3rd or even a 4th winner prototype? Only time and impending misfires will tell! :)
Oowatanite		#4694	[-]
Posts: 6573 (12/15/08 12:09 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Abby, first of all, ya gotta use paragraphs. A lot of posters WILL NOT read through one ginormous paragraph. Secondly, this is Edgic. It is not BrainHeartGut. It is not FamilyFinalFour. It is not OpeningCreditsSpeculation. It is not WinnerQuoteAnalysis. It is not BestPositionedPlayers. It is not AnimalImagery101. And it certainly isn't ThinkOutsideTheBox. Corinne got TWO INVs. Corinne was not a legitimate Edgic pick. "Sticking by your pick" when it's obviously wrong is not noble. Marcus was the clear favourite but he got booted. Kenny was the next clear favourite but he got booted. Matty got booted. We had a F3 of possible winners who were not edgically viable. So Edgic failed this season. Oh well, we'll try again next season. Edgic has a set of guidelines built up over the seasons. It is NOT a free-for-all in here. It is not "think outside the box". It is not "my fave's gonna win and here's why". If anyone wants to have a free-for-all spec thread, they are free to start one next season.
scepticA		#4695	[-]
Posts: 1460 (12/15/08 12:13 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Could edgic have predicted this outcome? No. Let's face it. Kablooey. As a fan I'm as happy as I've been since Ethan won. Yeah, some other victors have satisfied me, but I cheered for Bob. As an edgic'r, I laughed when the F3 were determined We blew it big time, and it bothers me about this much [0]. (to those who think that the successes here are due to spoilers, speak for yourselves. I haven't looked at a spoiler board during a season since Amazon, when ChillOne was everywhere, even here. Sometimes I'm luminously correct, other times I blow the big one. So f##king what? The world keeps spinning, the stars remain in the sky.) The "rule" of edgic is to pick the winner at the merge. We all jumped the gun and picked Marcus before the merge, and serves us right. But our backup, Kenny was like the edgic red-headed stepchild. Nobody was really thrilled with him as a pick, but edgic must pick some one - that's the point, after all (I picked him too, so I'm fingerpointing in my general direction also.) And Matty - sigh. That was sort of the "well, he's the best sort of kind of secone choice... " There are some "rules" lthat a Bob selection seemed to work with, like the INV, first episode, guy with bow ties, and other sundry hypotheses we try and force-feed into the edgic gameboard, but the edit for S17 was simply outside whatever general metric we have concocted here. (But my "tree of knowledge" hypothesis won! Hurrah! Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!!!) To those who want to consider themes, etc. as part of edgic... now is the time. The season is over, and we can all discuss how edgic should be modified after this edgic debacle - or if it is salvageable at all (i have my doubts.) flf can speak for himself, but i got the feeling that a lot of his commentary to people discussing non-edgic things here was: we don't talk about revisions to edgic until the end of the season. So to those who want to run away from edgic right now when they have ideas that might improve it, about the only thing that's discussed now is whether to bring these matters up in a separate thread or there. I'm for the conversation statying here, if that matters. So, back to the question: Is edgic salvageable? I simply don't know. This was so far outside the edgic standards that I simply can't see how we can reconcile Bob's victory with only modest changes to edgic. Yes, first episodes are very important, but they're important to a lot of people, and because his "game" didn't really show up until after the merge, the expectation that we pick a winner by the merge - I assume that obligation is inviolate - Bob would still not be on my radar. yet, I'm delighted he won. I liked him, and every time he was shown I was fascinated by this rather scholarly gent with a bow tie. But his win, and the way the whole season was edited, makes me ask the most important question I have about whatever legitimacy edgic has: What evidence to we have that the editors of Survivor, from the very first episode, know who the winner is? And without some reasonable certainty to the answer to this question, edgic is pointless. This is coming from a true fan of this (and all previous) edgic threads. Just wondering....
Thailandsurvivor		#4696	[-]
Posts: 3873 (12/15/08 12:29 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I havn't checked in here since Marcus's boot, but I was wondering how you guys did on predicting that Bob would take the win.
Casey333		#4697	[-]
Posts: 593 (12/15/08 12:33 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Everyone picked Bob to win by the merge episode. Total edgic victory!
cantthinkofaname		#4698	[-]
Posts: 1252 (12/15/08 12:36 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Ok I just found out who won, so now I have so many pages of posts to catch up on. About edgic failing, yes, it was a failure for every person who participated under the current rules. The people who picked Susie, Sugar, or Bob to win failed by doing just that (those 3 either had editing, logic, or nothing, not both editing and logic). And people who picked Matty or Ken failed because, well neither of them won. So Gabon was a failure for everyone, we were all screwed from the start. We will have to change the rules significantly to avoid another failure like this.
craig		#4699	[-]
Posts: 14526 (12/15/08 12:47 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I can declare victory as well as any edgician this season. NEGATIVE FANG THEORY The Negative Fang Edit theory, which I championed more than anyone all seasons, was 100% correct. Crystal and Kenny were the equivalent of Raro postmutiny or Jamie\PG after throwin the IC. Bob and Suagr, the last two Kota, did stategically and physicaly own the Big 3 on Kota. Fang gets Ulonged, then saved by twists, then blows the endgame to run the full gamut of suckitude. Edgic majirity is now 0/3 at picking Comeback Winners. As I said the week I was arguing for Corinne, such comback are better predicted by negative editing for the tribe that blows (Axis of Evil, Ami) than anything special in the comeback player. VISIBILITY Edgic must finally realize that when people like Bob or Corinne only go to TC once on seven episodes, they are gonna by low visibility when Marcus is leader and Randy is entertainment. The people who doubted Parv and backed Cirie based on S16 ep.5-7 made the same error. Moreover, our visibility measure is screwed towards tribes going to TC, with 5 points for TC questions and othing for challenge footage. We neeed to find a fairer measure of visibility between TC going and non TC going tribes. because the main story is always explaining the boot. Bob had a decent edit episode one, and was way more visible postmerge than either Vee or Danni. We can't very well whine able a player that won the AC prize being too UTR. He was a bigger presence than Matty even though Matty spoke more words.
JaMalle		#4700	[-]
Posts: 4345 (12/15/08 12:51 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	yay, our first OTTP winner!!! lol Seriously, while I'm extremely happy Bob won, it makes me realize how dim this season was in terms of Edgic. Editing, I thought was amazing, except for with Susie. Total miss right there. The handling of Sugar was fine I thought. My friends were confused as to why she got less votes than Susie since they looked at her as "The Emotional Godfather" of the season, but were both surprised and happy to see that Bob had made it, despite being a major threat. I think I'm going to do Edgic next season. It probably failed because I wasn't here. lol Nah, there was no way of predicting Bob's win ith Edgic. No way. and btw guys, stop being so bitchy. It's so unbecoming of this amazing thread.

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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