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ncassaro |
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My only concern is that we'd end up having half the cast in the winner's column. I think we should look at Marquesas, Guatemala, and Gabon and see
what common threads those seasons have. That could tip us off that we're getting a type B.
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ncassaro |
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I still don't think Kota was complex! Neither was Yaxha in Guatemala. Neither was Lopevi in Vanuatu. Marquesas is debatable. Anyway, I think winners
from the non-complex tribe get weird edits. They had to edit Fang as complex because most end-gamers were from Fang, but the winner himself wasn't. Hence
we get a weird season.
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9RedWing19 |
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After the Deluge
First in a possible series of S17 reflections
Bob and Edgic Guidelines By my count he failed guideline 2; was borderline on guidelines 1, 3, 5 and 7; and met guidelines 4, and 6. For me, guideline 2 is why I eliminated him (I also gave him an INV in Ep 5). I also concluded (erroneously) that he wouldn't win when in Ep 7 he was shown snoozing in the hut while others were plotting before TC. I think it shows that those one-off moments that the casual viewer won't likely remember, but the editing fanatics do remember, are not necessarily as critical as we may think. In other words, if forced to pick between obvious and subtle, pick obvious.
General Edgic Guidelines I think some of us (myself definitely included) have a tendency to over-analyze the edits, rather than see the episodes through the eyes of the casual viewer. Kenny is a case in point. His edit before his boot turned - the more he proclaimed himself the master-strategist, the more we saw that others (Sugar and to a lesser degree Bob) were out-witting him. It wasn't subtle, and that (retrospectively) should have been a red flag.
There have been suggestions to bring the concept of "season-theme" into the guidelines. While it may be worth considering, I would want to see if we had used it in earlier seasons, would it have led us to incorrect conclusions (eg would we have picked Ozzie over Yul). I think the same principle should apply to any system modifications (ie if a modification would have helped us pick Bob, but mean that we would have missed winners from earlier seasons, then the modification may not be worth implementing).
We may have to simply conclude that S17 was an unusual season with 2 UTR, "boring" contestants getting all the votes, while the "entertaining" member of the F3 played a game that gave herself no chance to win. Sugar the backstabber was key to allies/friends Ace, Charlie, Crystal, Ken and Matty not making it to the end, and proclaiming that she played a social game, for which she received 0 votes. We may never see another season like this one.
S17 / S11 There was an interesting parallel at the F6 between S17 and S11 with NuFang mirroring NuNakum. We had Crystal and Ken in the Rafe and Steph roles, Susie as Lydia and Bob as Danni. Like NuNakum, NuFang was a weak alliance that eventually splintered (in OldFang, Matty and Susie were in a different alliance than Crystal and Ken). |
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Francois40 |
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Type A: Fit only traditional Edgic (All winners except Danni and Bob)Coffee, you need to add Vecepia, the first "Type B" winner, to your verbiage. 1) The winner will likely be edited to be more positive than negative. Neither Danni nor Bob ever got an N. This also makes editing sense: if you have a player who can't be edited as winning through strategic means, you may as well make them likable. Why would they ever edit a player who couldn't be shown as deserving strategically as unlikable?Vee also had no Ns, just Ps and neutrals. 3) The winner will have a substantially stronger postmerge.But EVERY player has a stronger edit post-merge, because there are fewer of them! I kind of know what you're saying here, but you need to be more specific.
Last Edited By: Francois40
12/15/08 8:53 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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menelaus |
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There is something glaringly obvious that nobody has really said yet about the Type A vs. Type B winner idea (which I think is absolutely great, btw), and I
think nobody has bothered stating it because we see it. The type B winners are all comeback players. The four biggest comebacks in the game (Vee, Chris, Danni,
and now Bob) have all had Type B characteristics (Chris's edit becomes strong around the merge, but before that is really weak).
The reason that they would have to do it this way is that the people controlling the game are the ones who are naturally around the action. People like Bob don't do anything, so you can't really show them. However, they do end up winning because the people who are doing stuff all get booted, so some sort of hubris has to be edited into the storyline. In Marquesas, it was John's complete and utter cockiness, and in Gabon, it was first the Kota's mistreatment and alienation of Susie and then the Fang's complete dysfunctionalness. So much of what we got in the beginning with Fang sucking sort of laid out why they couldn't get the winner in the end: They just sucked. Even with complete control, with only one Kota left (Sugar has said, "I am Fang now"), they couldn't pull it off, because they constantly make mistakes (also probably why the Jacquie boot, while correct, was edited as a huge mistake). With all the Type B seasons, we have some sort of a downfall storyline set up, where the ultimate winner is the biggest benefactor of the whole incident. I think a way to look for a type B season is to look for where the edit sets up some sort of hubris. |
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getting real |
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Redwing said:
There have been suggestions to bring the concept of "season-theme" into the guidelines. While it may be worth considering, I would want to see if we had used it in earlier seasons, would it have led us to incorrect conclusions (eg would we have picked Ozzie over Yul). Theme-based analysis in that racially divided season should have concluded that, if at all possible, the winner would be edited as a conciliator, as Yul was. Ozzy couldn't win after he was shown laughing at Billy when causing him to fall in the thrown challenge. You were absolutely right to flag the 'Bob sleeping while others strategized' scene. However, when it became obvious that to be shown as strategic was a no-no this season (Corinne was the harbinger of that), we should have re-assessed the value of that scene. |
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colleenlover |
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guys, I had a hoot this season. Most fun I've had watching this show in a long time.
And, personally, if the guidelines were changed or tweaked there would still be no way I would have ever picked Bob as the winner. Or would I have ever picked Danni. does it bother me -hell no. I still enjoyed the outcome immensely. It's still like watching/reading a murder mystery and saying, "oh, you got me." It's going to take a lot for another season to get me excited again though. It was a fun trip, everyone. |
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getting real |
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colleenlover wrote:Yep, as a fan, I'm happy with Bob's win. It was a fun season. That's why I can't understand the sentiments expressed by people when they say they would have been happier with Marcus winning. Personally, I don't think it's much of a journey when an entire season's posts consist of "Isn't it great? Yet another set of figures confirming that Earl/Tom/Yul/Marcus wins". And another helicopter shot todrive home the sledgehammer. |
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Green Coffee |
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My only concern is that we'd end up having half the cast in the winner's column. I think we should look at Marquesas,
Guatemala, and Gabon and see what common threads those seasons have. That could tip us off that we're getting a type B.
Not necessarily. We'd just have way more people that aren't eliminated. We'd also have more winner candidates, but not everyone would be a high winner choice. We'd probably have a few people who really fit each one well and then a bunch of people who aren't eliminated in one or the other, but they wouldn't be strong candidates. I see where you're coming from and we should definitely avoid having too many winner choices but I don't envision it as being a winner free for all in whatever final form it would take (if it did, we screwed something up in building it). I also totally agree that we should examine those seasons more than my glance at the charts and memory. Coffee, you need to add Vecepia, the first "Type B" winner, to your verbiage. Vee also had no Ns, just Ps and neutrals. Does V count? I was under the impression that Season 4 was one of the foundations of Edgic, meaning it likely contributed to the development of current guidelines. Not only that, she has a CP early on which doesn't match as well but she seems to have marginally higher visibility. However, she does fit with the tone idea. I have to admit that I know nothing major about season 4 because I wasn't here (and I honestly never have gotten a chance to see it) so other people will have to weigh in more on this. If she does count, that's actually probably good for the theory because its just another example we can draw upon and more/less patterns that might be able to be observed. But EVERY player has a stronger edit post-merge, because there are fewer of them! I kind of know what you're saying here, but you need to be more specific. Well said. I think what I mean is that their increase is... disproportionate to their earlier edit if that's a good way to put it. They go from low key to a much bigger character. Type As are bigger characters throughout. Losing edits of the consistent low visibility type never pick up (Susie). This needs work. There is something glaringly obvious that nobody has really said yet about the Type A vs. Type B winner idea (which I think is absolutely great, btw), and I think nobody has bothered stating it because we see it. The type B winners are all comeback players. The four biggest comebacks in the game (Vee, Chris, Danni, and now Bob) have all had Type B characteristics (Chris's edit becomes strong around the merge, but before that is really weak). Much like V, I wasn't sure if people would put Chris in the B category. I was here for Survivor 9 but I had just recently discovered Edgic and I barely understood it. Again, if people think he does fit, that's just more to think about and look to in crafting potential guidelines. The come-from-behind idea is a good example of a possible situational constraint that moves the edit from A to B. Do we still see come-from-behinds that fit type A? If so, then it might be a clue to B but not an exemption from As who would need to come from behind. |
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JFRX |
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In light of Bob's win, a major consideration in adapting the guidelines for the future should perhaps deal with guideline 2:
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Casey333 |
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This "Type A" and "Type B" stuff sounds really complicated.
But I agree with the general principle: If the top picks all have severely flawed edits, it's time to start looking more closely at the players with "weaker" edits. Both times that edgic got burned - Danni and Bob - the backup winner pick (Steph and Ken) ended up losing. |
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cindidindi76 |
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Why do you even care about the changes? Not too long ago in Spoilers you were posting that you hoped Crystal would win so edgic would implode or something.
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Casey333 |
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I said it would be funny to see the reaction in edgic if Crystal (or Susie, or Bob) won.
I knew Ken wasn't going to win, so edgic was going to implode either way. Let's face it, edgic was screwed as soon as Marcus got the boot. And I think deep down a lot of edgicers knew that. Nobody seemed really comfortable with the Ken pick, even though he was the "safest" choice of the people who were left. |
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cindidindi76 |
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A Crystal win would be entertaining on so many levels. The edgic meltdown alone would make it worthwhile. I'm still not sure why you would care about any changes that may or may not be made, lol. |
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dissimilis |
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The biggest problem with the type A and type B edits is that both in S11 and S17 edgics #1 choices (Brandon & Marcus) werent voted out until the traditional merge episode with 10 people left. It will be next to impossible to rule out all the type A edits by the merge episode, there will always be one type A edit that will look better than all the type B edits. The type B stuff doesnt start looking good until around F7 when the Garys, Stephs, Kennys and Mattys just dont feel right anymore |
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getting real |
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From RNO interviews:
As I've been saying: She had ....(pause).... the producers' best interests in mind. And she was rewarded with her edit.
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Casey333 |
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cindidindi76 wrote: I don't really care about changes that may or may not be made, because I usually follow my own particular guidelines when making winner picks. I'm just saying that edgic is already complicated enough without adding a whole separate set of guidelines. I was just gently poking fun at how screwy the editing was this season.
Last Edited By: Casey333
12/15/08 10:12 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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craig |
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MB outwitted everyone this year - edgic, spoilers, smart players like Marcus.
Fewest spoilers since before amazon. The spoiler forum was reduced mostly to speculation and many episode boot picks were wrong. 2 SUGGESTED REFORMS 1 New guidelines referring to tribal editing. The winning in unlikely to come from a tribe or alliance that receives strongly negative editing early or at a crucial point in the game. 2. Some measure of visibility that is fairer to tribes not going to TC premerge. Of course Matty gets more screen time than Bob if he goes to TC 6/7 times and Bob only 1/7 times. or Cirie more if she goes 6/8 an Parvati 2/8. We need a fairer and mosre balanced measure, as edgic arouse in the days before Ulonging became so commonplace. The stuff about Type A and B seasons is really an admission that edgic works better in pagoning season were editing tells the story of how the mastermind wins and his endgame competition is with him all season so we can compare edits. As opposed to seasons with powershifts and comeback winners, where the big personalities tend to go prior to F3 and finalsits may get crappy edits if they are UTR, boring, or don't do much. Reforms won't necessarily ensure we get the next Danni or Bob. But perhaps they will prevent people from embarassing edgic by domatically backing pics like Kenny in future. I'm proud that I was decisive about picking Yul and Parvati when they had clearly superior edits, but played with ideas and was open-minded in S11 and S17 where such rigid certainly in backing one option was foolish. |
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AndreSurvivor |
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That Sugar interview got me thinking: Did Bob invite all the other family members back to camp just so Sugar could get her moment to spread her father's
ashes? Matty's proposal, I think, was spontaneous, but the extended family visit may have been for Sugar's benefit.
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cindidindi76 |
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Lol at Sugar thinking she's going to be on any show and/or movie she wants because of Survivor. She's hardly the first person to go on the show looking
for fame.
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