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 Warrior |
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Posts: 2676 (10/14/08 3:07 PM) Registered User |
Corinne's ViSiBiLiTy.
Did you see it? 
Here's the rest... Hmmm...Invisible or Under the Radar... L E T' S A S K J E F F . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
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NickF227 |
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Posts: 4792 (10/14/08 3:54 PM) |
Parvarti was obvious?
Well, I always think it's easier to edit a female winner and not be obvious to even a hardcore fan. Cuz like, they are more UTR/MOR than CP and shit. Still hanging on to my "Failure Edit" please. V_V |
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 guatemala fanfic |
KEN = CP please | ||
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Posts: 3856 (10/14/08 4:16 PM) |
Ken: CPN4
This didn't come out exactly as I wanted it to, so I'm not sure if the post is going to be difficult to follow, but I am going to attempt to convince people of why this is the best rating for Ken by giving a detailed description of his edit:
The bolded red text is instances where Ken fits the criteria for CP.
THE SWITCH
Ken asks "What about Kelly?" to his new tribe and Ace tells him "Not Kelly." Then Ken asks Matty what he thinks and Matty says Bob. Ken says that if he picks Bob, Bob would go with Ace and Jacquie, and Matty says "Not necessarily." Jeff then asks Ken for his choice, and against his tribemates' wishes Ken picks Kelly:
Ken on choosing Kelly: "Jeff, for myself, I'm always the last picked sometimes so I know how it feels to be left out, so I'm gonna go with Kelly. I want to get to know her. And she's hot."
1) CP means a character that is well-developed.
= Character development for Ken in that we find out about him being last picked before and how he empathizes with Kelly's situation.
FANG SCENE
Ken initiates the discussion with Jacquie and Kelly talking about the dynamics on Kota where Jacquie says the entire tribe got along and Kelly says it was her and Paloma.
Ken: You guys looked like you got along really well after you guys won those challenges against us
We then had the scene where Ken, Crystal, and GC brought Kelly into their alliance. Ken was mostly in the background in this scene with Crystal and GC doing the talking at first, but we did get a key confessional from Ken where we get into his head and hear why he picked Kelly.
CONFESSIONAL ONE: When I saw Kelly on that mat and she was the last one picked, I knew I could sway her to my side because she did not get along with Kota. Yeah, and she's also hot. There you go.
Clearly, the reason that she's "hot" is not the true reason, but it's the reason that he wants some of his tribemates to believe.
1) CP means a character that is well-developed. Their editing has depth to it, and their choices are presented to the audience so that we get an insight into their thinking. We generally see their strengths and flaws. Not too surprisingly, these are the major players in the course of the game, and it is their choices that shape the story.
= Ken's choice of Kelly was presented to us and explained at the Switch and in confessional. We know why he picked her and how it related to his strategy.
3) Someone who expresses internal conflict over a situation, someone who expresses a "deep" or turbulent emotion like remorse, loneliness, or betrayal expressed intelligently and not like "You're a liar, T!;" someone who demonstrates a complex strategy or bold strategic move and their reasoning for it.
He then says "Kelly, you should stick with us. We'll take care of you."
CONFESSIONAL ONE, CON'T: Right now, I'm only using her for a vote.
2) CP shows complexity of thought about the game
= I wouldn't just apply this guideline to this quote, but to most of his edit. He's involved in quite a bit of strategizing later on in the episode too.
IMMUNITY CHALLENGE
Jeff mentioned a few times that Ken was not helping his tribe during the challenge, including one where he was called "virtually useless."
FANG STRATEGY SCENE
At the beginning of the scene, GC says that Ken sucked during the challenge and Ken says he was going around in circles and he couldn't figure out what to do.
Ken: So G, what do you think? We need to keep Ace?
G.C. then says they should switch it to Kelly because she has a bad attitude about stuff and Jacquie did alright today.
Ken: I'm good with Kelly. I'll put her down. You okay with Kelly, Crystal?
G.C. then brings up that if Sugar has the Immunity Idol she wouldn't give it to Kelly, but she'd give it to Jacquie.
Ken: If we vote Kelly tonight, it'd be a risk.
Matty then comes into the discussion and asks if they're voting out Kelly. Ken tells him that it's Jacquie instead.
Ken: Jacquie, because if Sugar comes through with an Immunity Idol, (muffled talk from Crystal and G.C.) she'll share it…
The next part of the scene is a conversation between Ken and Jacquie. I didn't include what Jacquie says in the transcript below.
Ken: People are scared. […] You came from Kota and no one really knows you.
Ken: Because Kelly was ranked eighth in that thing and everybody feels that she was the outsider. […] I know I don't want to see you leave, but if I did vote with you, then it wouldn't have mattered anyways. My vote will not count. It'll still be outnumbered.
Jacquie tells Ken that she wants to be with "you guys" (Ken, Crystal, G.C.)
CONFESSIONAL TWO: Jacquie seems very genuine. After I had a talk with Jacquie, I kinda wanted to go take out Kelly before Jacquie. If we make the wrong choice right now, it will hurt really bad later, so my mind is not made up right now.
3) Someone who expresses internal conflict over a situation, someone who expresses a "deep" or turbulent emotion like remorse, loneliness, or betrayal expressed intelligently and not like "You're a liar, T!;" someone who demonstrates a complex strategy or bold strategic move and their reasoning for it.
= We hear that Ken is undecided about the vote and he's considering voting for Kelly over Jacquie, so once again his choices are presented to the audience and this is supposed to make it look like he's up-in-the-air. Like with Crystal's edit, traditionally someone who's portrayed as a swing vote is usually CP because we see them weighing out both sides.
Ken: <to Jacquie> I don't have any power. I can try to vote for Kelly tonight, but it's not gonna do anything. You really need to talk to Crystal.
TRIBAL COUNCIL
Ken is asked a TCQ about whether or not he trusts the old Kota members.
Ken: Right now, in three days, it's really hard to trust anybody, Jeff. We have to build trust from the beginning and see who they really are and that's how you trust somebody.
= Strategic / insightful comment
Ken is then asked a TCQ about who should be most worried if the original Fang votes together.
Ken: I would say Kelly and Jacquie have to be worried tonight because we do need physical players on this tribe to start winning challenges, so either one of them.
3) Someone who expresses internal conflict over a situation,
= Maybe not really "internal conflict" but again, he's presenting the two boot options to us and is supposed to be seen as somewhat of a swing vote.
4) If the player gets quality screen time and is either shown multiple times being strategic or shows a multi-dimensional side, then you go with CP.
= I would say that this applies to his edit, although that may just be me.
So, to conclude, I believe that all four of the criteria for CP clearly apply to Ken's edit in this episode and I would be very interested in seeing arguments to the contrary. BTW, I also feel GC should have been CP so I really don't want to see Ken miss out. |
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panurge46 |
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Posts: 1127 (10/14/08 4:50 PM) Registered user |
I may not make friends because of this but I'll once again state that Corinne shouldn't be eliminated. Some say that she didn't have anything
developped that looks into the end game but I will disagree:
"I don't want to be the only girl" could turn out to be equivalent to Chris's "I can fool a bunch of guys a whole lot better than a bunch of women." The way women have been decimated, that Susie and Kelly are on ejectable seats already and Corinne may very well find herself the only girl with 5, 6 or 7 men. Then what? I'd say that comment would be her "winning quote"! Also, as far as reinforcements about her position, this may be a stretch but consider that she was the one that brought Bob in the alliance, that Kota is noted to be a great camp and Corinne's the one that told OldFang it was all because of Bob. If NuKota dominates the post-merge, the link between Corinne and Bob could be the key to the season. |
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Warrior |
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Posts: 2677 (10/14/08 4:54 PM) Registered User |
Excellent post gf, can't dispute any of it...changing my chart from MORN4 to CPN4. |
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Oowatanite |
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Posts: 6017 (10/14/08 6:49 PM) Registered User |
panurge46 wrote:Or "I don't want to be the only girl" could turn out to be equivalent to Kelly's "I choose Jacquie to keep all threee blondes are on the same team". |
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panurge46 |
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Posts: 1128 (10/14/08 7:12 PM) Registered user |
Oowatanite wrote: True, but Kelly was a nobody then while Corinne was established as a strategist in the previous episode. I too have Marcus as the clear front runner but, to stay with a previous comparison, Survivor isn't a 100m dash but a marathon and Usain Bolt wouldn't do well in a marathon. All I'd like to add is that I prefered Corinne's episode #4 to Marcus' episode #3 where he argued with Ace contrary to his established game plan, his only confessional was used to point out irony and he gave that arrogant fake tear farewell to Paloma. |
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unduli clone |
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Posts: 3071 (10/14/08 8:33 PM) Registered User |
Good post, gf. I clearly see that he fits the criteria for a CP now. I still felt MOR, but what do I know? 
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beatles20147 |
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Posts: 11824 (10/14/08 11:15 PM) Registered User |
Phoenix1269 wrote:Outcasts twist?
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cantthinkofaname |
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Posts: 1217 (10/15/08 3:03 AM) Registered User |
I think there's a mistake on the ratings chart. It has Crystal as the 4th person but the voting results chart says Charlie is 4th. So which one has the
mistake?
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Warrior |
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Posts: 2678 (10/15/08 4:33 AM) Registered User |
Thanks cantthinkofaname...hit refresh.
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guatemala fanfic |
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Posts: 3857 (10/15/08 5:51 AM) |
Excellent post gf, can't dispute any of it...changing my chart from MORN4 to CPN4. Thank you, Warrior. Glad to hear it! :) |
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Phoenix1269 |
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Posts: 215 (10/15/08 8:29 AM) Registered User |
Re: Close Call for Ken
wheni did my rating for ken, i struggled between CP and OTT. I recognized he had a lot of strategic talk but i felt he was more OTT due in large part to the over emphasis of screen shots showing him to be lazy & useless... Since the close call is between MOR & CP, and based on the excellent post by gf outlining specifically how Ken fits the CP model... if i could go back and change my vote, i would vote Ken as CP Ken = CPN4 |
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Kitty Pryde1 |
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Posts: 5845 (10/15/08 8:39 AM) |
Since when is MOR NOT a mixture of OTT and CP? I thought MOR was more of a "If they don't fit into UTR, CP, or OTT, they're MOR," which fits
Ken perfectly.
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colleenlover |
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Posts: 8565 (10/15/08 9:35 AM) Registered User |
personally, since the beginning of time for me.
MOR = blah, forgotten -not really tended to. Hence, middle of the road. I argued for years that MOR shouldn't have a tone because it's the antitheisis to the whole point. I read that CP and OTT mixed to form this a few seasons ago, and didn't understand why. I know, I know I'm in the minority. |
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colleenlover |
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Posts: 8566 (10/15/08 9:37 AM) Registered User |
the MOR players for me stemmed from just an indifference back in the day. Meaning, no story was being crafted about them until they were marched out for
their boot episode.
ie. "Tammy? What do I think of her? Ehhhh, not really anything -she's completely middle of the road." |
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MyChemicalShowmance |
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Posts: 1014 (10/15/08 10:09 AM) |
colleenlover wrote:Danielle, Caryn, Cindy, Amanda, LOL. Basically, it's always women that make it very far in the game that MB doesn't give a shit about. |
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OnlyTheHunter |
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Posts: 1705 (10/15/08 10:15 AM) Edgician |
CL, since I didn't come in until Vanuatu, I wonder, before MOR existed, and even when it came around, what was your criteria separating it from UTR. I
don't think I've ever heard your opinion on it, and would like to know.
Michael |
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Phoenix1269 |
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Posts: 216 (10/15/08 10:27 AM) Registered User |
MOR is not a MIXTURE of CP & OTT...
the guidelines say: 1) MOR means something between UTR, CP, and OTT. They say and do enough to avoid UTR, but they're not emphasized caricatures or developed personalities. This is a holding episode for characters who could be CP, but the story didn't particularly involve them, or for normally UTR characters who couldn't escape inclusion in the story. As such, winners are often portrayed as MOR at some point in the story. However, a consistently MOR edit is not a good thing because these characters are more just kind of there. 2) Someone who gets an odd positive and negative mix, but not in an Over the Top manner. 3) If the player did something that you feel makes them better that UTR, but not enough to qualify for CP, then you rate MOR. 4) MOR can be used to describe characters who were mostly UTR with a fair amount of CP. Unlike #1... Ken was not somewhere in between like the guidelines say... and the story DID involve him, extensively. He was developed, he did demonstrate complex thinking. And this was no "holding" pattern. Ken was NEGATIVE...not some kind of odd mix, like #2... and even though I felt he was OTT... i was apparently all about the "feelings" the day i did my ratings, and I'll freely admit that i was handing out OTTs that day like halloween candy. I'll also admit that i was wrong on giving him the OTT... the lazy shots were intended for TONE, not OTTness. Ken was certainly better than a UTR... and he did BY FAR enough to demonstrate CP (refer to GF's post on this page) (#3 & #4) Ken fits CPN4 better than MOR. eta: i agree with CL and would also like to hear opinion on the separttion from UTR. thx
Last Edited By: Phoenix1269
10/15/08 10:29 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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OnlyTheHunter |
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Posts: 1706 (10/15/08 10:31 AM) Edgician |
The inclusion of positive and negative mix should not be there anyway, assuming tone is separate from rating. That crops up a couple of times in the
guidelines. Rating is not dependent on tone is not dependent on visibility, even though common patterns may emerge between them. It'd be nice to spend
end of December through February really hashing out and actually updating the guidelines.
Michael |
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