S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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colleenlover		#1101	[-]
Posts: 8567 (10/15/08 10:41 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Okay, I think this is how it went,or at least my angle on it back in early 2002. There are three types of edits on this show that the editors use. The complex edit, the over the top edit, and the under the radar edit. And within those edits, the story tends to take a slant on making us like them or hate them (ie. positive or negative) They are only concerned with eliciting a feeling from the audience and evoking a tone for the contestant. (Richard is a bad guy but has legs in his story (CPN); Jerri is a bad guy but is only in the here and now (OTTN); Rodger, Colleen, Lis is the good guy but we know they will win if they make it to the end (OTTP); Kim Powers is a good guy despite being with the bad guys but isn't shown much (UTRN) I think the talk of MOR started come into play when we realized everyone wasn't lining up into a neat littl package anymore. And starting with S4m we were getting contestants that really were never shown (unlike our previous joking of Amber and Nick) -we now had Tammy, Robert, Zoe, etc. who provided no feelings -and were in a void.
OnlyTheHunter		#1102	[-]
Posts: 1707 (10/15/08 10:48 AM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Thanks. The thing provoking my interest is how to, in my view, find the difference between an important UTR character and the blah MOR character, who seems "bigger" to many on first glance. Corrine seemed important without much time shown, where Matty is there but blah. I believe some can view MOR as a step "up" from UTR, but in fact is isn't so as a given. That's why I wanted to hear you say it. Michael Last Edited By: OnlyTheHunter 10/15/08 10:50 AM. Edited 1 times.
colleenlover		#1103	[-]
Posts: 8568 (10/15/08 10:54 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I know, I know -I'm at work and not really proof-reading or following through on my thoughts. And Survivor has evolved (devolved?) over the years. More contestants -unbelievably ignored players that would make Nick and Amber look like Hamlet. But take for example Kim Powers and Zoe. There was a difference in my eyes, where a craft was taken with Powers, where neglect was done to Zoe. We talked a lot about the winner winding up in the middle, but doesn't mean MOR in an ideal impression for the winner. Arguing that is just bad story-telling. Some (myself included) debated whether there would be such a thing as MOR anyway -since what editing team in their right mind would want to compose a character who is completely blah. I said instead it is a neglected character -and therefore most likely would not win. The winner makig his or her way to the middle of the pack, hidden (etc) is akin to the magician's magic trick and why we have the OTT sparkles diverting our eye.
scepticA		#1104	[-]
Posts: 1406 (10/15/08 10:58 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Up until S6 or S9 or whenever I refused to use MOR, thinking (sorta like CL) that it was a copout of sort, and just gave them strong UTR. "Under the radar" to me meant not any significant part of the primary story(s) of the episode. UTR1 meant hardly seen at all, UTR3 meant seen and heard but inconsequential to the boot/argument/strategy/outbursts/crying jags that made an episode memorable. Right now, UTR3 is essentially extinct. I thought it odd when in some season's episodes there were 80-90% MOR ratings from some people. Either the editors completely dropped the ball or us edgic'rs were afraid to actually take a stand. Since then I have... matured. I do use MOR for those "holding pattern" edits... the edgic consensus winner - let's say Marcus - has a inconsequential episode where he's kept around but not part of the big stuff. But because he's the consensus we think it's a holding pattern so we MOR him. I used to have no problem giving out UTR3's to people like that. But now he's MOR: Not this, not that, just (as CL said) meh. The one new defense of MOR I can provide is that players, even through the magic of editing, often can't be pigeonholed into our categories. We have round, square, oval, and triangular holes. And the people come in more shapes than that. Unlike CL, I can see how someone with an edit that isn't part of the episode's primary stories can still be off-putting or distasteful - or, in contrast, decent and fun. MORN and MORP are certainly acceptable for these edits. (Just as I used to insist that UTRP3 was acceptable.) Even if a rating you honestly come up with seems out of the mainstream, I suggest people list them and explain why. At least it's more fun that way. I give, for examples, my CP1s for Chris in the so-called "missing episodes" and, in the same season, the rather unusual UTR5 I gave Eliza - she had maybe one sentence but about 20 SPVs: constantly talked about, never seen. We just need to do our best and give solid explanations for "non-mainstream" ratings. And I still think MOR is something of a copout, even when I use it.
colleenlover		#1105	[-]
Posts: 8569 (10/15/08 11:00 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	An UTR with specific tone was much more important to me back in the day than someone who was MOR. Since I said it depicted a tended to edit with tone- and could blossom into a CP (I was right with Tina, wrong with Kim Powers -but you can see subtle craft is there) And then the addition to tone was brought to MOR and I agrued that is counter to the whole point -"They're MIDDLE of the ROAD! They don't have a tone that's what the whole point is -NO ONE CARES!" But it kind of evolved to people debating another level of screen time and tone level -are they a level one (UTR), a level two (MOR), a level three (OTT) or a super duper entity (CP)? And here is where I think it just gets too convoluted and we are bound to keep introducing new levels.
colleenlover		#1106	[-]
Posts: 8570 (10/15/08 11:03 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I don't really know what I believe in now. I don't even know if edgic works for me, but I do like editing and pulling out what the point of certain scenes are for. Sound bytes, music cues, cut shots, etc.
Siddon	re:	#1107	[-]
Posts: 3098 (10/15/08 11:08 AM) I need a hobby Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I don't think that Ken was negative I think Crystal and GC received a negative edit. I don't think you could edit Ken as a positive within his current alliance but I do think he is one of two players on his tribe that can go far. I would compare Ken to Cirie at this point where Cirie had a negative storyline but she wasn't edited as a villain. The feeling that Marcus goes far makes sense, and he could be the winner but I don't get that vibe from him. Probst is pushing the character angle this season and neither Charlie nor Corinne really function as villains while Ace and Randy could be villains and could go far. My guess is that only a handful of people can win at this point Sugar, Ace, Randy, Ken, and Marcus these players have had story arcs and logic dictates that they can and do go far. Not only that but 2-3 of those players have to make the final episode otherwise it would kill the final episode. My hope is that the final five is Bob (5th), Marcus (4th), Randy (F), Ace (F), Sugar (F) with the jurors being Crystal (10th) Charlie (9th) Corinne (8th) Kelly (7th) Ken (6th)
OnlyTheHunter		#1108	[-]
Posts: 1708 (10/15/08 11:10 AM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Thank you , scepticA! I (unless my brain is gone, no comment from the peanut gallery) used UTR3 already this year and have no issue with it at all. The "holding pattern" definition catches my eye. Purposefully keeping someone from a bigger role that was available to them is different than pushing them a bit more then others for no good reason. Identifying it is key. That's Parvati last year seems "too UTR" to too many, when it was clearly more important than that by paying attention. Michael
OnlyTheHunter		#1109	[-]
Posts: 1709 (10/15/08 11:22 AM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I love ya, CL. Edgic works fine for you, I think you are always on top of the unfinished business that easily gets overlooked. I'm a hybrid, I guess. I see some value in using figures to equate everything, but I also have to view it as a craft, asking questions. "Why is this shown?" Why is this not settled?" etc. I have written songs, stories and everything in between since I was a little kid. I wrote a vampire play when I was 7. (And it sucked. <rimshot>) I always recall seeing your analysis of reading the show as a detective novel and it clicked with me from my day one. When applying things correctly, the numbers add up. But I can never get away from seeing it as a story. It's not a James Bond novel, where you know the killer immediately. But you have to know the protagonist stands for something throughout. It's hard to explain what I do, but I see value in some additions since the days that pre-date me (MOR and Mixed Tone come to mind), but only as tools in looking for the purpose, finding the winner. As a result, I don't get immediately concerned if someone is "too" this or that in one glance. It's the build over time that helps. When you find Antoine dies in chapter 4 and isn't the killer, you move on. When Alexis didn't develop, I kicked myself last year. Parvati got that important, meaningful progression and I waited on Alexis to grow. I stay open to changes but still read into the logical process, "Why show this here?" "What's the payoff?" Hopefully this makes sense. And since I think the winner of Gabon is fairly easy to spot, I have now cursed that choice. Go Bob or Randy! :-) Michael
scepticA		#1110	[-]
Posts: 1407 (10/15/08 11:26 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	OTH, I need to expand on what I said about Marcus and his MORs (I'm using Marcus just because he is the consensus edgic winner - Parv or Earl could work just as well at this point in their seasons.) The problem I have with a "holding pattern" consideration for these types of players is that we're basing their rating in a single episode on their past edits. Part of me thinks this is insanely logical - if they do edit the winner differently then they might logically have some sort of "holding pattern" scenario for episodes where cool stuff happens that doesn't involve the winner. But that also seems to be in sharp contrast to edgic. Let's say two players have the exact same type of edit. A few sentences, a few confessionals, not much in the way of SPVs. "There," but not big. Visiblity right on the 2/3 border. One of the players is Marcus. The other is Miss Invisible, who's had a ton o' UTRs and INVs in the past episode. I get the sense that some of us will gladly stick the "holding pattern" tag on Marcus: A perfect edit for the winner, low key, holding in place so we don't forget him.... MOR3. Would we give Miss UTR/INV the same rating, or would we say: Could have been a breakout, but no. same old stuff, still not a factor, and besides - we eliminated her in week 2. UTR2 That's one place where I question some of our ratings - how much do we modify our ratings based on past performance?
OnlyTheHunter		#1111	[-]
Posts: 1710 (10/15/08 11:37 AM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Good points, sceptic. Sometimes one player's MOR2 and another's MOR2 simply are the "right" ratings but don't "mean the same thing." I fall in the camp where you don't do more than view the single episode to the standards of the episode itself as much as you can. I know that isn't 100% consensus. And not 100% obtainable. If Randy berates a player, that's his character to date. If sunlight and sweetness Sugar cusses someone out, would we give her viewpoint more weight to merit Tone of the player she spoke of? I think we do whether or not it is right. And you are right about trying to keep the winner with a different profile. I think my UTR3 this year was Marcus, actaully. My thought is that a holding pattern is no defined entity, it's a look at the individual character overall compared with his/her overall look. An UTR1 for Todd is seemingly a larger change of pace than an UTR1 for Aras, pre-merge. I'd love to hear other opinions on your question, "how much do we modify our ratings based on past performance? " God, I'm talky today. In a good mood at work I guess. Michael
TheLurkerSpeaks		#1112	[-]
Posts: 1326 (10/15/08 12:38 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	You'll note my definition that you are all parsing includes both characters as MOR. It includes the generally developed character who is present but not contributing as much to the story as usual and the generally unused character who does enough to get noticed. In the context of an MOR edit for a single episode, both edits would be very similar as they should be to get the same rating. The biggest difference to me between MOR and UTR has always been involvement in the episode's story so it isn't just about visibility. I tend to give narrators MOR because they lay out the basics of the story going on though they generally provide little insight and generate little characterization. UTR edits, on the other hand, include both those edits that contribute nothing (unused players) and those whose presence is limited and maybe unrelated to the story, but whose comments seem important (potentially hidden players). When a scene seems extraneous, it often involves a bit of foreshadowing when something will become important later on. Not always, though - sometimes the comment just reflects the season theme the editors want to stress no matter who says it (like some comments of Alexis last season). In the past, UTR edits often had to do with characterization scenes that weren't part of the main storyline, but in recent seasons, these have largely disappeared. UTR on the whole has been squeezed by more players being booted up to MOR and by the use of the INV rating. These days, it seems the only players who get UTR are those with really low visibility that people like too much to give an INV. Somehow, the impression exists that an MOR is better than a UTR, but as they were initially intended, that wasn't true. UTR's included the hidden players - MOR's were generally just extras. I don't know if it is possible for UTR to reclaim the ground it has lost, but that is part of the reason I do tend to argue CP and OTT definitions to prevent everything becoming a muddle in the middle. (There's been periods both ways with too many OTT's and CP's and not enough.)
Phoenix1269		#1113	[-]
Posts: 217 (10/15/08 12:42 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	thank you CL & Sceptic for sharing your viewpoints and the history. This has been very interesting, and i find that i agree whole heartedly with much of what you are saying. For myself, i try to base everything episode by episode... and sometimes i am successful and sometimes i'm not. When a role has been boiled down over a period of 4 episodes to ONE THING (ie. Charlie and his "I <3 Marcus"-ness).... then i tend to see it as an overall. But unless something is that specific... then i will look at what the episode is trying to tell me. I think this is why i am having trouble slapping an INV on Corinne. She wasn't invisible... i remember her, i saw her, i heard her. It wasn't a lot, but she WAS THERE... and if she does end up the only girl... then there was a reason for putting that quote in there.... Then there is Dan...who for the life of me, i can 't remember! What he did or what he said this past episode completely escapes me. So who is more Invisible... who is more UTR?? I have always had some trouble with how many people equate INV and UTR1... they are not the same rating. And why not have a CP1 or an OTT1? The rating is the rating, the visibility number is the visibility... i just find that a lot of time this distinction is missed. I agree with Sceptic, if the rating fits.... use it. Even if it is weird. eta: spelling/grammar
Kitty Pryde1		#1114	[-]
Posts: 5848 (10/15/08 1:29 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Phoenix1269 wrote: thank you CL & Sceptic for sharing your viewpoints and the history. This has been very interesting, and i find that i agree whole heartedly with much of what you are saying. For myself, i try to base everything episode by episode... and sometimes i am successful and sometimes i'm not. When a role has been boiled down over a period of 4 episodes to ONE THING (ie. Charlie and his "I <3 Marcus"-ness).... then i tend to see it as an overall. But unless something is that specific... then i will look at what the episode is trying to tell me. I think this is why i am having trouble slapping an INV on Corinne. She wasn't invisible... i remember her, i saw her, i heard her. It wasn't a lot, but she WAS THERE... and if she does end up the only girl... then there was a reason for putting that quote in there.... Then there is Dan...who for the life of me, i can 't remember! What he did or what he said this past episode completely escapes me. So who is more Invisible... who is more UTR?? I have always had some trouble with how many people equate INV and UTR1... they are not the same rating. And why not have a CP1 or an OTT1? The rating is the rating, the visibility number is the visibility... i just find that a lot of time this distinction is missed. I agree with Sceptic, if the rating fits.... use it. Even if it is weird. eta: spelling/grammar A casual viewer would remember Dan being with Matty, Susie, and Randy prior to the swap, whereas Corinne had no memorable moments aside from the swap itself, in which they HAD to show her picking, and if you're going to give her a UTR for that, then you might as well go back and give UTRs to everyone who performed well in challenges and had NOTHING else otherwise.
WeatherGal	Re: S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon	#1115	[-]
Posts: 412 (10/15/08 2:22 PM) MESS member Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Logic would dictate that there's no way that Marcus can run the table and win Survivor Gabon. Marcus Editing: Other than his onion layers comments, he's almost a one-dimensional dreamboat cliche. He's target 1A once we get to the individual game and he has already lost on of his main allies in Jackie. Charlie is all about his lame mancrush on Marcus, so either he gets scorned by Marcus (which would logically be unlikely given Marcus' golden boy edit) or Marcus gets the heave-ho and Charlie goes ballistic in a revengeful blaze of glory. Either way, Charlie's not our winner.
OnlyTheHunter		#1116	[-]
Posts: 1711 (10/15/08 2:50 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	WG said: Logic would dictate that there's no way that Marcus can run the table and win Survivor Gabon. That is logic of playing the game. We look at the logic of the edit. Why mention the onion alliance early, not other ones? Why craft the setup of Marcus leading Ace along? That's great for Marcus. We have a long time to see that play out, and it will. Logic of the game said Chris was toast at the merge. Different type of logic applied here. Michael edited - world champ bad typist strikes again Last Edited By: OnlyTheHunter 10/15/08 2:52 PM. Edited 1 times.
Warrior		#1117	[-]
Posts: 2679 (10/15/08 3:32 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	flf...Please...
guatemala fanfic		#1118	[-]
Posts: 3858 (10/15/08 3:34 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	flf...Please... And please also see my post regarding Ken being CP on the last page, if you haven't already seen it. Thank you.
Phoenix1269		#1119	[-]
Posts: 218 (10/15/08 4:25 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	kitty... thank you for the great laugh at your comment about the casual viewer and dan & corinne. my partner...who is a true casual viewer (and has incredible tolerance for my hobby but zero interest or understanding)... is a great measure for what edit is standing out or what is not. If she's seeing something... it's meant to be seen. That said... she remembers Corinne... she is actually the one who noticed the weird challenge editing with Corinne. When i asked her about Dan... she looked at me blankly and said... "are you talking about that old guy with the bow tie?" After reminding her who he was (first on exile, original fang tribe, picked by Marcus, etc)... she still had no clue who i was talking about. So... i guess not EVERY causal viewer is going to remember Dan, and not EVERY one will remember Corinne.
tmtomhJanet		#1120	[-]
Posts: 248 (10/15/08 6:04 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I only watch each episode once and I don't remember either Corinne or Dan. I lurk here at edgic so after the episode is over I usually at least try to mentally pick out the INV and OTT people. I'm pretty sure I lumped both Corinne and Dan into the invisible category. Dan I didn't care so much but I was kind of disappointed by Corrine since that would pretty much seal her fate and she was the only decent female edit left.

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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