The game is played 100 times. . .

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kenc333		#81	[-]
Posts: 9669 (10/31/09 5:55 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Umm Todd also wanted to get rid of JR before Sherea until Amanda talked him out of it, and that would've made original Fei Long and original Zhan Hu enter the merge 5-5. Todd also wasn't viewed as weak because they made him sit out of the super-physical challenges (both wrestling ones) and the food challenge.. so they knew he was relatively weaker. The final 5 and 4 votes were also completely Amanda's decision. If she wanted to go to the final 3 with Peih Gee and Denise, she could've done that at 5, and if she wanted to go with Courtney and Denise, she could've done so at 4. The fact is, he got lucky that she stayed loyal, because say Amanda were replaced by someone like Danielle, who went back on her word whenever she thought it might help her in the next round, then Todd would've been out. And regarding being targetted... Amanda wasn't targetted until the 19th tribal council she attended (between her two seasons), and that's a huge reason why she went far twice. Also, Palinpost <3
Kitty Pryde1		#82	[-]
Posts: 10833 (10/31/09 6:25 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	That 1% happened to be in a season where Chris was on a tribe consisting entirely of men, where his physical strength didn't give him an advantage, and a challenge specifically tailored for women to succeed at allowed for him to fuck up. And he STILL didn't get voted out. You act like he would cause his tribe to lose in EVERY challenge, when really, he would only do poorly at a balance beam challenge, which favors women as it is.
ilovekelly752		#83	[-]
Posts: 163 (10/31/09 7:34 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	kenc333 wrote: Umm Todd also wanted to get rid of JR before Sherea until Amanda talked him out of it, and that would've made original Fei Long and original Zhan Hu enter the merge 5-5. Todd also wasn't viewed as weak because they made him sit out of the super-physical challenges (both wrestling ones) and the food challenge.. so they knew he was relatively weaker. The final 5 and 4 votes were also completely Amanda's decision. If she wanted to go to the final 3 with Peih Gee and Denise, she could've done that at 5, and if she wanted to go with Courtney and Denise, she could've done so at 4. The fact is, he got lucky that she stayed loyal, because say Amanda were replaced by someone like Danielle, who went back on her word whenever she thought it might help her in the next round, then Todd would've been out. And regarding being targetted... Amanda wasn't targetted until the 19th tribal council she attended (between her two seasons), and that's a huge reason why she went far twice. Also, Palinpost <3 There really wasn't much difference between JR and Sherea because Frosti was completely content with going with Todd. It was just the difference between 6-4 and 7-3, and Jean Robert was blindsided two tribals later anyway. I know Todd was originally percieved as weak, but he positioned himself so that it didn't matter, and could've in any season. He could've done as badly as Ryan S. from Pearl Islands in the challenges, and still have been safe because of his persuasion. Danielle went back on her word, like you said, when it could've helped her. Todd convinced Amanda that going with him would help her. She was going to do whatever helped her, whether it involved breaking her word or not, otherwise she wouldn't have even considered going against him. She thought it out, and listened to what Todd, said and he got her to keep him. He could've gotten Danielle to do the exact same thing. Even at 4, Courtney was so solid, the most Amanda cold've done was tie. You saying Amanda had control in the top 5 and 4 is like saying Denise had control in the top 6. That position just fell into her lap, and Todd convinced her to make the right choice for him. Amanda wasn't targetted because Todd carried her to the end. Courtney and Denise weren't targetted either. People aren't going to go against the coattail riders, they're going to go against the threats. Todd being the one taargetted proves that he was the biggest threat, and he changed his fate four times in a row, five if you count the final TC, when several people said they changed their vote.
ilovekelly752		#84	[-]
Posts: 164 (10/31/09 7:40 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Kitty Pryde1 wrote: That 1% happened to be in a season where Chris was on a tribe consisting entirely of men, where his physical strength didn't give him an advantage, and a challenge specifically tailored for women to succeed at allowed for him to fuck up. And he STILL didn't get voted out. You act like he would cause his tribe to lose in EVERY challenge, when really, he would only do poorly at a balance beam challenge, which favors women as it is. If there were men and women on that tribe, Chris still did the worst job, and it's not the only time he messed up. He was lucky there were four old people and five young people, which there isn't in most seasons. I don't think it's a coincidence that every young guy either voted him out, or thought he would be out and were in favor of it, and how every older guy voted to keep him. The difference between Chris not getting out when he's a target, and Todd not getting out when he's a target is that Todd did it himself. Chris was the original pick to go twice. Sarge saved him the first time, and Twila saved him the second time. Todd was targeted four times. His deal with James prevented him from using the idol, he convinced Denise to vote Erik out, his deal with Amanda, and what he would tell her for her to think she should go to the end with him prevented her from flipping, and he persaded Amanda to vote out Denise when she wasn't going to in the final four.
goohst		#85	[-]
Posts: 1333 (10/31/09 9:18 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Something I wonder is how similarly demograph'd players would compare over 100 times. For instance, how would Betsy, Debbie, Sandy, and Susie compare to each other?
ilovekelly752		#86	[-]
Posts: 165 (10/31/09 9:35 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	goohst wrote: Something I wonder is how similarly demograph'd players would compare over 100 times. For instance, how would Betsy, Debbie, Sandy, and Susie compare to each other? That's really interesting. There are definitely a lot more factors than good gameplay that lead to someone going far in the game.
Xyston		#87	[-]
Posts: 229 (10/31/09 9:48 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Kitty Pryde1 wrote: Fact: Tina proved herself by surviving 3/4 of the tribal councils in the first four episodes. This is the time when weakness is most heavily used as a reason for voting someone out, especially in a sixteen person season. After those first four episodes, strength is less of an issue, because at that point, people start thinking ahead to the merge and who will be more difficult to beat. Oh, and by the way, in case you forgot: Tina won without any votes cast against her either. And Tina is one of only three women in Survivor history (hell, throw Big Brother in there too, same number) that has beaten a guy in the final vote. She's also the only one who beat a guy who wasn't completely hated by the jury. No way in hell could Sandra pull off that same feat. Who cares about mindless statistics like people never receiving a vote? If you think Sandra is such a poor winner why bring up the fact that Tina never received a vote when Sandra did the same thing and won by more votes? If we are working with facts you need to include everything. Fact: Hatch, Tina, and Ethan have lost 50% of the games they've played in. All the other winners have won 100% of the time. Not a Fact: Tina is the only female who beat a guy who wasn't completely hated by the jury. Matthew was not hated people just respected Jenna's game more. Rob was not completely hated by the jury he received 4 votes just like Colby. Fact: Hatch, Tina, and Ethan have accumulated some of the most votes against them in their career. Not a Fact: No way in hell could Sandra pull off that same feat. This is based on nothing more than your opinion. Fact: Hatch, Tina, and Ethan are 3 of the only winners to ever be voted out in a game. Sandra is not even at the top of my winner's list but people assuming she is a weaker player and then making ridiculous exceptions for other winners who've done much worse is a crock.
AveryC		#88	[-]
Posts: 20 (10/31/09 10:10 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I have no idea how anybody can even consider Todd to be a good winner. He was a D grade strategist competing against a bunch of over the top caricatures who had no idea what they were doing. Yet he still sucked. The best example of this is his dreadful handling of the immunity idols. Having obtained the clues in one of his very few resepctable moments, he then proceeded to make one bad move after another. First he looks for the idol in plain sight of the entire tribe, meaning people like Frosti were able to find out he had it. Then he proceeded to tell people needlessly about the fact he found it. What good came out of telling Denise he found it? Nothing. And then he made more mistakes. The obvious move was to keep his idol, then throw the challenge to remove Sherea and gain a majority position with an idol in tow. Instead he decided to give the most physically strong contestant left two immmunity idols right before challenges went individual. Then he expected James to throw the challenge when he had no incentive to do so. Even James is smart enough to realise that two idols are better than one. Of course James didn't throw the challenge and Sherea was voted out anyway, all those stupid strategic moves lead to the same outcome that could've been easily achieved for greater gain. Except Todd initially wanted to throw away the numbers over a petty grudge against Jean Robert. He got saved by Amanda's common sense. So Todd went into the merge with the huge obstacle he created of James's idols. At the final Nine an oppurtunity was created to boot James and keep the numbers. Everything was in place when Jean Robert approached him with the same plan. Suddenly Jean Robert had to go, because according to Todd people weren't allowed to have the same ideas as him. Todd's ego got him into yet another bad move. At the Final Seven Amanda recognised that this would be the last chance to remove James and his idols so she, not Todd, lead the crusade to vote him out. She fixed the situation Todd could've done many times before, but didn't because he sucked at basic strategy. Todd's jury speech was also awful. His arguments consisted of saying "I am strategic" without saying any strategic moves he made. When asked by Peih Gee about whether he got dragged to the final by others Todd gave this gem: "I am strategic because Jean Robert told me so on the first day". Yep, what a mastermind His would've been ripped to shreads by smarter people, like Cirie or Eliza or Jonathan. He won purely because Amanda lost her way and Courtney's lack of moves cost her, despite making a fantastic argument for herself. He should belong at the bottom of all winner's lists and should never be cited as a good strategist. I do not expect ilovekelly752 to ever get these facts, because he clearly doesn't think with his head. He's named Todd as his favourite and hottest contestant of all, and is clearly blinded against him. Most overrated winner EVER. Last Edited By: AveryC 10/31/09 10:13 PM. Edited 2 times.
tomash		#89	[-]
Posts: 1606 (10/31/09 10:13 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Gameplay is overrated, entertaining winners ftw <333
ilovekelly752		#90	[-]
Posts: 169 (10/31/09 10:19 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	AveryC wrote: I have no idea how anybody can even consider Todd to be a good winner. He was a D grade strategist competing against a bunch of over the top caricatures who had no idea what they were doing. Yet he still sucked. The best example of this is his dreadful handling of the immunity idols. Having obtained the clues in one of his very few resepctable moments, he then proceeded to make one bad move after another. First he looks for the idol in plain sight of the entire tribe, meaning people like Frosti were able to find out he had it. Then he proceeded to tell people needlessly about the fact he found it. What good came out of telling Denise he found it? Nothing. And then he made more mistakes. The obvious move was to keep his idol, then throw the challenge to remove Sherea and gain a majority position with an idol in tow. Instead he decided to give the most physically strong contestant left two immmunity idols right before challenges went individual. Then he expected James to throw the challenge when he had no incentive to do so. Even James is smart enough to realise that two idols are better than one. Of course James didn't throw the challenge and Sherea was voted out anyway, all that stupid strategic moves lead to the same outcome that could've been easily achieved for greater gain. Except Todd initially wanted to throw away the numbers over a petty grudge against Jean Robert. He got saved by Amanda's common sense. So Todd went into the merge with the huge obstacle he created of James's idols. At the final Nine an oppurtunity was created to boot James and keep the numbers. Everythng was in place when Jean Robert approached him with the same plan. Suddenly Jean Robert had to go, because according to Todd people weren't allowed to have the same ideas as him. Todd's ego got him into yet another bad move. At the Final Seven Amanda recognised that this would be the last chance to remove James and his idols so she, not Todd, lead the crusade to vote him out. She fixed the situation Todd could've done many times before, but didn't because he sucked at basic strategy. Todd's jury speech was also awful. His arguments consisted of saying "I am strategic" without saying any strategic moves he made. When asked by Peih Gee about whether he got dragged to the final by others Todd gave this gem: "I am strategic because Jean Robert told me so on the first day". Yep, what a mastermind His would've been ripped to shreads by smarter people, like Cirie or Eliza or Jonathan. He won purely because Amanda lost her way and Courtney's lack of moves cost her, despite making a fantastic argument for herself. He should belong at the bottom of all winner's lists and should never be cited as a good strategist. I do not expect ilovekelly752 to ever get these facts, because he clearly doesn't think with his head. He's named Todd as his favourite and hottest contestant of all, and is clearly blinded against him. Most overrated winner EVER. I think Todd made a lot of controversial moves as to whether they were smart moves or not. For example, I think giving James the idols was brilliant. It absolutely solidified James's supposed place in the alliance, and it made James think he was going to the top five, and it made him the target over Todd. Todd also made a deal with James which got him to not use an idol. Other people may look at that completely differently. Almost every move he made was like that. That's why I think there's so much controversey as to whether or not Todd is an amazing winner, or a horrible one. I think if he made all those moves that were supposedly terrible, and he still managed to get to the end, then maybe those moves weren't so terrible, and he knew what he was doing the whole time. I think the best winners of every reality show are like that. If you watch Big Brother, contestants like Will and Dan threw competitions, voted against the majority, and made speeches that they knew would make themselves targets, and they're regarded as the best two players ever on that show. I think Todd's the same way. ETA: Although I'm not going to, I could actually specifically argue every single point made in this post. Some of it is just flat out inaccurate, and the rest is good moves that were portrayed the wrong way. I could argue it if you really want me too, though. Also, Eliza said she loves Todd. Last Edited By: ilovekelly752 10/31/09 10:30 PM. Edited 5 times.
kenc333		#91	[-]
Posts: 9670 (11/01/09 11:07 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I don't see how anyone can say that Todd carried Amanda to the end.. Final 7, Amanda made the decision that Todd was not comfortable with. Final 6, Continue the Pagonging. Peih Gee/Erik approached Denise more than Amanda. Final 5, Amanda won immunity, chose to vote out Peih Gee over Todd. Final 4, Amanda won immunity, chose to vote out Denise over Todd. From what I was watching at least, Amanda got herself into the finals in China (and in Micronesia too..) and brought her allies with her. Amanda always stayed true to her original alliances, and those allies eventually won the game.
ilovekelly752		#92	[-]
Posts: 172 (11/01/09 1:25 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	kenc333 wrote: I don't see how anyone can say that Todd carried Amanda to the end.. Final 7, Amanda made the decision that Todd was not comfortable with. Final 6, Continue the Pagonging. Peih Gee/Erik approached Denise more than Amanda. Final 5, Amanda won immunity, chose to vote out Peih Gee over Todd. Final 4, Amanda won immunity, chose to vote out Denise over Todd. From what I was watching at least, Amanda got herself into the finals in China (and in Micronesia too..) and brought her allies with her. Amanda always stayed true to her original alliances, and those allies eventually won the game. Final 7- Todd talked to James before TC, and got James to trust him, which resulted in him not using an idol, so Todd was a big part in it, although it was Amanda's idea. Final 6- Denise was seriously considering flipping, but Todd went up to her after Peih-Gee and Erik were done, and told her that they should trust each other, and that the best decision was to vote out Erik. Final 5 and Final 4- Amanda was in the exact same position as Denise was in the final 6. Neither of them had control, they were just the swing vote, which just fell into their lap. Tod convinced Amanda the whole time that going with him was the better way to go. Amanda didn't even wanted Courtney in the alliance, and had qualms about every decision that was made, except two. and Parvati in Micronesia carried Amanda too. If it was really vice versa, Amanda would've won at least once.
Kitty Pryde1		#93	[-]
Posts: 10839 (11/01/09 1:35 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Amanda carried Todd through the game while he made a series of suicidal blunders, and he won because he made those blunders, and they were seen as "moves" while Amanda fell apart on day 38. Honestly, Courtney should've won that season. It would've been awesome.
kenc333		#94	[-]
Posts: 9675 (11/01/09 1:44 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	At the final 7, they showed Amanda talking to James just before TC too, assuring him that Peih Gee was going. And that swing vote status didn't just 'fall into her lap'.. she got into that position by making the right alliances and winning immunities. And saying "Neither of them had control, they were just the swing vote" is kind of contradictory. Amanda weighed her options and thought Todd would be easier to beat in the FTC. Todd was not deciding Amanda's fate, let alone his own fate. Amanda carried him to the FTC and he got lucky that her social game apparently sucked and she couldn't speak assertively in front of the jury.
ilovekelly752		#95	[-]
Posts: 173 (11/01/09 1:58 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Kitty Pryde1 wrote: Amanda carried Todd through the game while he made a series of suicidal blunders, and he won because he made those blunders, and they were seen as "moves" while Amanda fell apart on day 38. Honestly, Courtney should've won that season. It would've been awesome. They're not blunders, and definitely not suicidal blunders if not only did they not hurt him in the game, they helped him. Eveything so called blunder was a smart strategic move, and if you want to point one out, I can explain how it was.
ilovekelly752		#96	[-]
Posts: 174 (11/01/09 2:08 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	kenc333 wrote: At the final 7, they showed Amanda talking to James just before TC too, assuring him that Peih Gee was going. And that swing vote status didn't just 'fall into her lap'.. she got into that position by making the right alliances and winning immunities. And saying "Neither of them had control, they were just the swing vote" is kind of contradictory. Amanda weighed her options and thought Todd would be easier to beat in the FTC. Todd was not deciding Amanda's fate, let alone his own fate. Amanda carried him to the FTC and he got lucky that her social game apparently sucked and she couldn't speak assertively in front of the jury. I'm talking about right before (which didn't air) when Todd went up to James and asked him of an idol, so that he could play it, and Peih-Gee would go home if James played his other one. James went to go get the idol for Todd, then he told Erik that there was no reason Todd should think he was going home, that James was on his side, then Todd told him to keep both idols to prove that he could trust him. And the reason Amanda was a swing vote in the top five and four was because Todd made such a strong alliance with her and Courtney, and Peih-Gee asked Amanda for a vote because she was the only one who was with Peih-Gee, when the others were at the reward, and she was the swing vote in the top four because Denise knew she was out and it had to someone. It could just as easily have been Courtney. Amanda wasn't really in control when she was the swing vote, because Todd controlled her vote by convincing her that Denise would win in the jury. If Todd really wanted to, he could've gotten Amanda out in the top six to prove to Denise that she would be in the top three, and he could've gotten Denise out in the top four with Peih-Gee and Courtney, since Peih-Gee was doing anything to stay. If Amanda didn't have immunity then, he could've gotten her out, and it's the same case with the top four. He was the one who knew that he, Amanda, and Courtney was the best final three. Amanda didn't know it until Todd got it through her head.
kenc333		#97	[-]
Posts: 9676 (11/01/09 2:19 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	You're acting as if Todd controlled everything Amanda did. Believe it or not, but Amanda could think for herself when she played in China and only stayed loyal to Todd because that's the way she plays based on her personality. As Todd has posted here at Sucks, the one thing in China that he was unaware of was how often Amanda considered turning on him. If you're giving Todd credit for Amanda not turning on him, why don't you give Amanda credit for Todd not turning on her? Todd was a good strategist, yes, but without Amanda, his game may have imploded.
ilovekelly752		#98	[-]
Posts: 175 (11/01/09 2:47 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	kenc333 wrote: You're acting as if Todd controlled everything Amanda did. Believe it or not, but Amanda could think for herself when she played in China and only stayed loyal to Todd because that's the way she plays based on her personality. As Todd has posted here at Sucks, the one thing in China that he was unaware of was how often Amanda considered turning on him. If you're giving Todd credit for Amanda not turning on him, why don't you give Amanda credit for Todd not turning on her? Todd was a good strategist, yes, but without Amanda, his game may have imploded. I know Amanda was a smart player. That's why I'm so impressed at how well he was able to manipulate her. If her personality was just to stay loyal, then she wouldn't have even thought about going against him in the first place. The fact that she considered going against him so many times and she didn't do it, shows how good of a manipulator he is. He convinced her not to every time she considered. Amanda never had to convince Todd not to go against her. Todd didn't have 50,000 people telling him not to trust Amanda. He approached her with the alliance, and knew that was the best thing for him in the game. It was his plan. His job was to keep convincing her to go along with it, not the other way around.
ilovekelly752		#99	[-]
Posts: 175 (11/01/09 2:48 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	triple post Last Edited By: ilovekelly752 11/01/09 2:51 PM. Edited 1 times.
ilovekelly752		#100	[-]
Posts: 175 (11/01/09 2:48 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	triple post Last Edited By: ilovekelly752 11/01/09 2:52 PM. Edited 1 times.

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