In particular, I am proud of how the torch walk has been improved.
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SenseiKreese |
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Actually you'll get more than the working copy. I should have episode 13a done in the next day or two. Then I'll post it here so anyone can nitpick
it. I think it is pretty solid.
In particular, I am proud of how the torch walk has been improved. |
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SenseiKreese |
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Okay! Part 1 of the finale is complete. Well, the working draft anyway.
Feel free to nitpick and correct away. I'm not going to make any fundamental changes to the episode (this is the final 2 I figured I would have for a long time now, so I'm happy with it), but if you see any weird style things or total logic errors, feel free to point them out. Even though this isn't a perfect finale, it is easily 151-201% better than the crap I put out there back in 2002. So if nothing else, at least the style is better. In particular, the torch walk is MUCH better. http://www.averdata.net/~...seb/hawaii/hawaii_13a.htm Episode 13a notes: I love the logic of why the player who left at F4 was voted out. That was something I sort of set up in the last two episodes. Although it certainly helped that the person who did win immunity ended up winning immunity. That was total luck on my random immunity pick. It also perfectly fit where I was trying to go with this episode. Sometimes I get lucky like that. Although I do have to say that even if the F4 imm. winner hadn't won immunity, the person who left at F4 still might have left anyway. I'm not sure. It would have been tempting. I'm glad I didn't have to make that call. I was glad that the person who provided commentary on the torch walk was still in the episode. That was a stroke of luck on my part. It made the episode a lot better. People forget that the torch walk narrator is a very integral part of a story like this. If you don't have a good one in the final three, you're dead. Last time around I had Kathy and Tina for that. This time it had the potential to be a lot dicier... |
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colleenlover |
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The three of them weren't just lucky.
But you've put a lot of blood, sweat and tear.s into this sucker. ...but I'm still rewriting for my shelf collection.
*Oh, and let's get some reaction shots from the jury members going on- it's crucial.
Last Edited By: colleenlover
08/30/08 8:23 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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colleenlover |
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I love the logic of why the player who left at F4 was voted out. That was something I sort of set up in the last two episodes. Although it certainly helped
that the person who did win immunity ended up winning immunity. That was total luck on my random immunity pick. It also perfectly fit where I was trying to go
with this episode. Sometimes I get lucky like that.
It's dramatic and fun- but the immunity winner is going to go through all that and put themselves at the mercy of the other two? Why not turn the tables on the one who was voted out, nothing to lose there. Have the immunity winner tell him/her swear to the final two in front of the jury and state I'm voting out X (the person who ultimately won the final three challenge) and see if the other two want to gamble on the purple rock. Nothing to lose and everything to gain for the final four immunity winner. |
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SenseiKreese |
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Yes but the F4 winner isn't a particularly good and/or cutthroat player. She's a straightforward thinker. I don't think she would even be aware
of that. Like she said in her speech on day 38 (which is the reason I put it there), no matter who she's up against in the F3, she's in the same
situation. Why prolong the inevitable? It's immunity or die, no matter who she's up against.
And thanks for the catch on the F3 winner never having won immunity before. I didn't remember that. In writing terms, that was a long time ago. :)
Last Edited By: SenseiKreese
08/30/08 11:00 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Kitty Pryde1 |
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I've gotta say that I love the final 2. I mean, Vee is an extremely overrated player, and I think you could put her in any season and she'd make the
final 4, probably making the final seventy percent of the time. She's just so good with her words that she can play the game perfectly. And for her to
win the game a second time would be absolutely epic.
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YemaGrl1988 |
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Kitty Pryde1 wrote:Overrated? Vee? I loved the F4 immunity challenge. So epic! I wish they had one like that on the show. It's simple, yet anyone could win. |
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SenseiKreese |
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Yeah that was one of my favorite challenges from the original Hawaii story. I liked it so much, in fact, that I even recycled it in Alaska. The only
difference was that in Alaska, they were using machetes and had to cut through devil's club ivy. Otherwise it's the exact same idea.
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SenseiKreese |
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Oh yeah... and I have a soft spot for challenges like that because they are easy to write. There's no action. Just put Jeff Probst at the end and have
him wait for the winner. Couldn't be easier.
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Kitty Pryde1 |
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UNDERRATED! I LOVE VEE! Damn misstypings >_<
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colleenlover |
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SenseiKreese wrote:I think that's an oversimplification of trapping people in their season -ie. First season was naive so they would remain that way as conversely we don't know how someone like Lex or Tina would play on a first season of unknown rules. Yes, she's a straight-shooter but she's been trying to negotiate in the past few days (Tina/Vee; Alicia in the final five immunity). She worked her ass off in immunity and knows she has to do it again, so why wouldn't she attempt something, even if it's lousy? Is she any different that Kathy in season four who came in knowing nothing and by the end was brokering deals right in front of everyone? You're giving two people an easy route (yes, they're good players but I really want to see the people earn it entirely) based on their reputations as being strategic or sly. I'm not trying to be a jerk -I am very passionate about this piece and call out anything that would seem anti-authentic. Yes, I know at certain times you will find yourself in a crossroads about which decision and both would have equal weight and that's where license has to come into it, in my opinion. And the comment about not remembering that X won immunity because it was so long ago might lie some of the problem that I'm having with the rewrite. Where it's been days and hours for the characters, it's been weeks and months for the writer (no fault, that's real life) -and it's a fresh approach from your vantage point starting with a new episode. (ie. Colleen is worthless and won't ever win a jury vote to being teflon and unbeatable in the final vote) And this has nothing to do with Colleen leaving, athough I think dramatically she and Tina leaving back to back left a huge hole, and on a personal level I would be naturally less interested. But Kathy's my favorite gameplayer and I knew the logic of her leaving. Hell, I even pointed it out and said there's no way around it. But once it got to final six, it got too fantastical for my believing, more like fan fiction than fly on the wall reporting. With three crucial events in the next three episodes that I thought compromised the eventual evictee. Interestingly enough though, I think the final two would have happened (or best odds though) if it followed a more natuaral progression. 6. Gretchen leaves. With either the Alicia sell-out move, or Colleen caving. 5. Tina leaves with Alicia getting immunity (and reward spoiler preventing her from being neutralized) again and John pulls his coup to prevent two winners in the final four as a block (although I really, really wanted that AHI final four) -and uses the John/Vee/Colleen allied from the beginning and betrayal by Tina with the Rob boot as leverage with Colleen while still keeping Alicia in check. 4. Guess Colleen would have won immunity since Gretchen did and the three others didn't. But she naturally votes out Alicia since she still thinks she's John's right-hand man- and Alicia only made it this far based on immunity, and again she, John and Vee have been together since the beginning -and John and she can beat Vee in the final challenge. 3. John wins the challenge and votes out Colleen thinking he has a better shot at former winner Vee- later reminding Colleen on their boat trip reward that it's just a game. presto -same final two (a little depressing but that's how the cards fell) But great work, Sensei. And in terms of story, guess Alicia really should have taken that final two deal with Colleen, huh? Or at least not gotten cutesy with John and just tell him they're voting off Tina and then she'd work with him. |
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kishuu |
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O_o. Didn't John win immunity before? I think it was the BRob boot episode =o.
either ways, can't wait for part 2 of the finale. Fully supporting Vee! I'm sure she has Tina, Rob and Alicia locked up already (John is gonna get screwed, royally) |
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zoramikau32 |
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Loved it, Sensei. Vecepia has been my favorite since the very beginning, and I would SO love if she managed to pull this one off. It could definitely
happen. John would be an extremely satisfying winner as well, though. Also -- I want to let you know that your goal of making Alicia into a character people
would care about has worked, at least on me. I literally fistpumped when she got ousted. I was glad she was gone. So there was an emotional response.
^^
^^
It might be deliberate, because you want to make it seem like there's progression of time, but it just felt like more than usual. Other than that, I felt it was an extremely solid episode. Well done, I can't WAIT for the end of it. |
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Yrik |
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I just skimmed through the episode and, yeah, John won immunity in the Boston Rob boot episode. You actually made it a big deal for him, emphasizing he had put
the final nail in Rob's coffin, etc.
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veeisforvictory |
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You know how much I lurv you right now Sensei right!! I loved how Vee once again started the convo of how Alicia got busted but never really got the heat for
it...
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SenseiKreese |
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Yeah I'll fix the John winning immunity thing. It's only one line, really. I can just change it to something like "You owe me, Vee. I could
have voted for you instead of Alicia last night." Same difference.
One thing I noticed about the finale, stylistically. During the Final IC, I feel like you do alot more spacing than usual. This kind: Yeah I did that on purpose. I wanted to make it more suspenseful on the last day. I'll see how it reads when I do the final draft.
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Kitty Pryde1 |
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At this point, I think Vee will win this game, because she's got Tina for sure. She's got Rob for sure. She's got Alicia for sure at this point.
She just needs one more vote, and aside from maybe Frank, I think everyone else is up in the air.
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colleenlover |
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I think in this version, Vee is winning hands down too.
Frank -John betrayed and sold out their original alliance for no reason (Lex, Tina, Frank), Vee never did him wrong, and he has Tina in his ear. VECEPIA Rob- can't stand these two knuckleheads- but will stick it to John by voting for Vee just for shits and giggles. John was a nutcase, while Vee was always cool and collected. VECEPIA Kathy -what to do, what to do? Vee played the better game and pulled it off again. But John is her friend. But maybe she sucks it up and votes for the better player. Edge though to JOHN Colleen -Vee doesn't need another million and Colleen is the only one who catches onto Vee's bullshit. She can make ammends and forgive her friend. JOHN Tina -yes, a vote for Vee. But she'll question just how much Vee was playing her. In any case, she'll applaud Vee's gameplay -VECEPIA Alicia- anger, anger, and will keep to her word (even if it doesn't make any sense) John screwed her, so now she screws him -even though no one will know what the hell she's talking about -VECEPIA Gretchen- it all comes down to that mountain top, game-winning move Vee made to seek council with Gretchen, and then her final four promise to Gretchen that she wouldn't vote her out that round. VECEPIA Vee hovered and watched the drama and picked up subtly the votes while John was shooting himself in the foot. The nation sighs that Gretchen left and Vee wins again. Burnett fires the production crew member who put the bug in Alicia's ear that Colleen could beat her in the end ruining the Gretchen/Colleen endgame. |
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Apollo Italiano |
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Great job so far, Sensei. I can't wait to read the final Tribal Council. This is how I predict the votes.
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SenseiKreese |
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And the comment about not remembering that X won immunity because it was so long ago might lie some of the problem that I'm having with the rewrite. Where it's been days and hours for the characters, it's been weeks and months for the writer (no fault, that's real life) -and it's a fresh approach from your vantage point starting with a new episode. (ie. Colleen is worthless and won't ever win a jury vote to being teflon and unbeatable in the final vote) I know you're going to be surprised that I am admitting this, but you probably hit the nail right on the head with this comment. I think you are dead on. There is definitely some continuity loss between episode 1 and episode 13 of Hawaii. The episodes themselves (as a whole) are fine, but I don't think Part A of the story always necessarily flows into Part B. And I don't think it could have either. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view) I took a very different strategy when writing this particular story. Rather than sit down and write Hawaii all in one big chunk (like I did with every other story), I decided to pace myself and go slow this time. Instead of churning out an intense 3-month Survivor experience by following a strict timeline, I decided to just lay back and write scenes whenever the mood struck me instead. I decided that my timeline would be more necessity-driven, as opposed to deadline-driven. Part of this was because I didn't want to get burned out like I did with all my other stories, but the bigger reason was that I thought if I did it this new way, you would wind up with much deeper and more memorable characterizations. In my new style of writing, if I knew I had to write a crucial scene between Vecepia and Tina, I wouldn't just sit down and write it because I had to have this episode done by a particular day. Instead, I would just sit back and brainstorm the scene for a while in my head. I would think, "What would be a really memorable way to write this scene? How could I present it in a way that you would remember 2 weeks from now? What little details could I include that nobody else would have thought to include?" I would sit there, and I would wait as long as I had to until inspiration struck me. It could be one hour. It could be a month. I didn't care. I would purposefully put off writing crucial scenes until I had some sort of a revelation of how I wanted it to come off in my head. And then, and ONLY then, would I go back to the episode and actually write anything. I would purposefully go 3-4 weeks between writing a single sentence, just because I wasn't inspired to write anything. And that is a huge difference in the way I wrote this story, as opposed to all my other ones. Every other one of my stories was deadline driven. This one had a lot more inspiration behind it, but it also took a year and a half. So there's your tradeoff. I think you sacrifice timeliness for quality. So yes, I love the way the new Hawaii came out. I love almost every single scene in almost every single episode. But that being said, of course you also pointed out the biggest problem I ran into, and that is with continuity. One player's character and/or standing in the game doesn't always translate to a later episode. I wish I could deny it, but I can't. It happened. I couldn't stop it. And the reason that happened is twofold. A) Some of these later episodes were written like 9 months later than the earlier ones. How the hell can I remember what I wrote 9 months ago? That was a whole different world to me. I have a hard enough time even remembering what the boot order was. My attention in this story has always been in the here and the now. What happened 13 months ago in episode 2? Beats me. Oh yeah, what's the second reason there is continuity loss between episodes? Well this one might surprise you, but I suppose I will fess up to it anyway... B) I have never gone back and read a single episode of this story after it was finished. Seriously. Once I posted it, that was it. I have never gone back to look at any of them. It's a wonder I had any semblance of continuity at all. I'm sure there are some scenes I may have repeated almost word for word in multiple episodes. If I did do that (and I apologize), now you know why. :) So anyway, in terms of lack of continuity, there you go. I think the episodes are outstanding from page 1 to page whatever. But if the characters sort of change and evolve abruptly between episodes, now you know why. Continuity was one of the variables I was willing to sacrifice on this one. Colleen, of course, is a perfect example. She's a goat in episode 4, and then she's an unbeatable F2 opponent in episode 10. Oops. Maybe the players got loopy. 30 days with no nutrition can mess with your head. Although in my defense, she still would have destroyed Alicia. I still think the logic was sound there. Just because you're a goat against most people doesn't mean you're a goat against everyone. And like I have said before, that whole incident (The downfall of Colleen) wasn't meant to throw her character away, it was more to build up Gretchen's. It was a way to build her up as a revenge win if she managed to win. Like I said in my notes at the time, that was Gretchen's Kill Bill moment. If she had come back to win, I would have built that up as being the catalyst. "You got me to vote off my Survivor daughter? Big mistake. I don't want to quit anymore. Watch what happens when I get mad." As a Colleen fan, I know you don't like that logic, but as a writer that was always my intent. I wanted Gretchen to have a big revenge-driven storyline. You call that fanfictioning the story, I call it thinking ahead. I tried to think ahead a lot more with this story. Although if Gretchen DIDN'T win, I was pretty sure the F2 would end up being Vecepia-John. Vecepia was in the final two against pretty much anyone. After my "The Defiant One" episode fell through, there was almost zero percent chance she would have been voted out. |
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