That said, are Gretchen's reasons for voting the way she did going to be revealed in the commentary notes?
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superkyle |
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Righteous! That's who I was hoping would win, right from the beginning.
That said, are Gretchen's reasons for voting the way she did going to be revealed in the commentary notes? |
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PJMichaelangelo |
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Great story, great ending. I think that's the only person who really could have won.
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SenseiKreese |
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I agree. All the plot points in the story kind of point to this ending. Once I got to a certain point, I knew it was practically inevitable. If Gretchen
didn't pull off the "Kill Bill" win, it pretty much had to be Vecepia. The more times I wrote that she couldn't possibly win (the Sean
episode, all the Tina/Vee comparisons), the more I was sure it was the direction I would probably go in the end. After all I did the same thing with my Alaska
winner as well. I spent the last four episodes convincing you they couldn't win, and then they did. I think it ends up being more satisfying an ending if
you do that.
In fact, if you look at it, Hawaii combines two of my favorite aspects of Alaska and Greece now. You get "the winner that could never possibly win, but does" (Alaska), and you get the "late changing twist which changes the entire way you have been looking at the storyup to this point." (Greece). In Greece you had Tanya's line about how she and Stephanie weren't enemies, they were just faking it. That happened in episode 8 or so, and it is my very favorite moment in any of my stories because it completely flips around the way you have been viewing the story up to that point. And I liked it so much that I knew I wanted to have something like that in Hawaii as well. The only difference is that in Hawaii it doesn't come in episode 8, it comes in the finale. It comes when Vee explains that she is the one who dragged John here, not the other way around. That is going to be my Tanya moment. I wanted to experiment and have my game changing line happen right at the end of the game, instead of in the middle. I wanted to see if that would be more effective. So anyway that's what I was trying to go for there. And yes I will have Gretchen's explanations in the commentary notes instead of the story. I figure I will write up a Q&A or a sit down interview with Gretchen, John, and Vee. That will be something different at least for this story. I don't really feel like writing a reunion for this one. I want the end of the story to be the end of the story. I think it will read more dramatically that way. |
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YemaGrl1988 |
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Holy shit, you had my heart racing.
I think if John won the final tribal wouldn't make sense. After Vee floored Gretchen during her question, I knew she would probably get her vote. It would lead to an epic ending. |
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MarcyPlayground85 |
Yay! | ||
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- - !!!SPOILERS DON'T READ IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE END!!! - - - I held off reading the finale until the whole thing was finished, because I didn't want to leave myself hanging for extended periods of time... Was very surprised by the results. Once the F2 came to be, I was rooting for Vecepia because I felt she played a better strategic game than John (personally) and I think she's underrated as a winner... But the final TC was so good that it left me rooting for John and I really didn't care that much who won. Weirdly, although I wanted her to win going into it, I was kind of disapointed when she won, just because that final TC kind of made me think maybe John did somehow deserve it more. Great ending though, insanely suspenseful. Loved the final TC most of all. What I like about your writing is that you allow these people to have real faults and to do things that are completely illogical, but make sense with who they are. This was mostly evident in the final TC where I think I really bought almost everything that everyone did. The characterizations of Vee, John, Rob and Alicia were the strongest, and Kathy was pretty good. Tiny (tiny) nitpick, but I can't not nitpick: I thought Frank and Colleen were both borderline cartoon characters with their questions though... Frank's always been shaky as a character though, and is more or less 100% forgivable because how does one write Frank "realistically" when he's just a very... strange person. Colleen's character was all over the place in the story anyways, but I chalk it up to her just being hard to write... Call me an idiot (clear this up for me, CL?) but I don't recall Colleen ever crying during Borneo, though she seems to have this reputation of being intensely emotional (which is more of an Elisabeth thing). She almost always was very smiley and tongue in cheek in Borneo... Whereas most people write her as kind of this shy, not so bright girl... and though she was definitely young and and shy in Borneo she still was very tongue in cheek and personally I thought she showed intelligence and perspective pretty often, and she seemed to revel in how rediculous the whole thing was... Even when she was giving an angry tirade ("I'm not gonna rank people's sob stories...") she wasn't *completely* angry, just stating a realistic fact... I dunno.. Whenever she was mad or upset she'd hide behind a smile or a bitchy/jokey rant... Her portayal in the story was that she was shy, not that bright, and kind of bipolar... not really blaming you, she's just someone it's hard to get a grip on. Most fanfic writers just write everyone as strategy-bots... which I don't mind if the story's good, but if not, eh. I like that the characters were strategy bots to a degree, but all had their hangups and morals and personality quirks that screw with their gameplay. But I digress, alot. Point is, loved the finale, *loved* the final TC... thought the rationalization of what John/Vee said/did, and how the jury voted made complete sense, and I liked the outcome. Funny how I was rooting for Vee going in, rooting for John near the end, and then satisfied (and weirdly disapointed?) when it was Vee after all. It's one of those situations where I'm cool with either winner (Colby/Tina, Ozzy/Yul...) and that's pretty awesome-o. Means you did your job. I'm still not sure what to make of the project as a whole. I wish you had gone one route or the other (rewrite the original or reimagine the original) rather than half and half (rewrite the original until the jury and then go balls to the walls)... makes it seem a little disjointed... and contradicts what you said you wanted to do with it on page 1 and in your early notes... but whatevs, still a good story overall. I still nominate all-winners with the winners of S1-16 next time you do a story. Regardless of whether you say you will or not, I think you'll do another one, because you can't not :P -M |
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SenseiKreese |
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I'll definitely write more later, but hold off on the Frank and Colleen nitpicks until you read the final version. Remember, what's up there now is
still just a first draft. I was basically just making it up off the top of my head. I'll probably fine tune a lot of the characters and speeches once I
go back and do a second run through.
Otherwise, great comments. I'll respond more in detail in a couple of days. Thanks! -Mario |
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Kitty Pryde1 |
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Definitely the most satisfying winner of any of your stories, Mario. (I supported Greg and John R.)
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colleenlover |
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it's really good writing, Sensei.
I don't know about the ending though. Meaning, it's tricky. I'm talking about the writing, not the strategy and Survivor stuff. The final sentence is powerful and succinct, but are we left hanging about the feelings and attitudes of our characters- especially the runner-up? Afterall, it's a character piece and not reporting a gameshow. Maybe just a few tweaks and then ending with that sentence. I thought Vecepia and John were two very successful characters in this. She is a toughie to write and you captured all shades of gray with her brilliantly. Vee got very lucky with the original tribal makeup, and with Sue and Lex's relationship. I think in any other combo she would be iced right away with John leading the charge. But I think this way was correct. I still think Richard would have left before Ethan. I would have liked more of the quandry of Keko keeping Colby in episode six in hopes that he could bring Tina over to give them numbers. I would have toyed with Boston Rob actually figuring out if he should just jump ship right away at the merge (thinking he could also get Colleen) -since he's smart and thinks out of the box and could see there would be no way to get around Tina/Frank eliminating him in final nine or eight. Essentially beating them to the punch and buying lots of time of building new relationships. Marcy, yeah I agree with your points on Colleen. I rewatched a little Borneo recently, and she's still the bees knees. Smart, snappy cookie. This version I didn't like in the latter episodes- I thought she was insipid. I would have just put aside the pyhsical characteristics and wrote her like Sensei talks or Rob C or Greg- but with little pangs of guilt along the way. All her interviews I've seen, she's on the friggin ball -and she was by the end of Borneo too. The previous winners is a strange predicament for the characters because I feel there will be a contradiction happening. The winners will feel like they can only face one another, and the non-winners will think they'll beat anyone again out of respect while even publicly declaring to one another they won't reward a winner again. And lots and lots of fear. I would imagine that John would make the plan of taking Vecepia in his ideal world, but would be tossing and turning in his sleep that people would be impressed and also he couldn't live with having her win again. I was most excited about there being a AHI final four with each person needing a different agenda. That would have been epic with a big tribal council of countering and so much dirty laundry coming out. I don't quite get the Colleen/Alicia/Gretchen arc. I can see Gretchen scaring Colleen into it by the threat of selling her out on spilling info. But with only three vs three why Colleen would commit to anything before seeing who won immunity and then never feeling Alicia out. Why Tina and Vecepia wouldn't vote Gretchen out since she's a variable they can't beat in the end whereas Colleen there's still wiggle room. Why John would believe underdog Alicia anyway- when her team is being picked off and has to make some kind of move, and sellects his closest ally to drive a wedge in his team when he knows he has to counter the possible Tina/Vecepia past winners-need-to-stick-together alliance. |
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TheLurkerSpeaks |
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Glad to see that Vee beat John. Despite John's condemnation of the UTR strategy, he played it himself up until about the Kathy vote. At the beginning he
was content to follow Lex, and when he flipped on Lex, he basically let Rob (and Vee) take charge through the merge and the first few post-merge votes. Then,
Vee was the one who basically negotiated Rob's removal with Tina so that Ahi could maintain the majority. John basically shifted into Rob's vacuum as
the Ahi figurehead. His game basically boiled down to his relationships with Vee, Colleen, and Alicia, and the two of those he didn't face at the end were
burned during the game.
Regarding the pivotal Episode 6, I definitely do think Alicia would have been at best a reluctant ally with Gretchen and Colleen at that stage, and I don't have a problem with Colleen failing to seek Alicia out (given that in this series, she avoided people she didn't get along with or didn't know). Colleen was relying on Gretchen and believed that if she said she had Alicia that she had Alicia. Alicia's shakedown of John made sense, and so did Vee's manipulation of John's anger to turn the vote against Colleen. (For Vee, Colleen was always going to be the sticky point. Colleen accused Vee of not realizing that they didn't get along, but Vee did despite her denial. This vote was the proof. Vee knew that she could form a consensus against Gretchen later. The move was risky from an immunity standpoint, but not from a targeting standpoint.) However, the one thing I would have done differently would have been Alicia forcing the target to Tina that episode with the agreement to flip the following vote. In the end, that may have only changed the order of Tina and Colleen, but it would have been better play for Alicia. (Of course, there may have been a lot less drama involved with both votes so I can't complain about it from an entertainment perspective.) |
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colleenlover |
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I agree completely with you regarding Alicia's tactic once Sensei went down this route, Alicia keeps it simple -remove Tina at six, and then the world is
her's in terms of options: She's kept safe by Gretchen and Colleen's deal, or she can get a feel if John and Vee (with their heads in the noose)
come to her with a really good offer.
I disagree with the Colleen agreeing to join Gretchen so easily despite how naive the character turned. She's in this sort of nebulous blackhole in terms of strategy that doesn't make much sense no matter how you want to show her indifference to enter into alliances. She had already semi talked terms with Rob about the endgame, and then also talked to Tina and Frank about numbers and the final four and cutting deals, so it's hard to think she was coasting with this AHI four without also being told and talking with someone about her piece of the pie (most likely, John). This is someone in all her interviews post Borneo talked about how much smarter Tagi played it by sticking to their numbers, so if she played again she'd at least go the most basic route, "Okay, it's a numbers game -get in an alliance right away and hold onto it for dear life). And if she didn't have these deals, why not flip earlier to bask in the comfort of Gretchen's maternal bossom? I didn't understand the logic of why Gretchen would keep saying "Don't talk to Alicia yet..." I would think it would be the exact opposite, talk to Alicia first and then Colleen, tag team Colleen. If I were Colleen, I would not commit to anything without at least talking to Alicia first and getting a sense. But also the question of why Colleen would flip other than the guilt of wanting to save gretchen. She should be solid with John, and also was with Vecepia and Rob from the earliest stages of the game. If Tina made the move of taking Rob out, Vee and John would also have had to talk to Colleen in fear of mass confusion of self preservation. Tina, if she were planning on rejoining the AHI four also would have had to talk to Colleen and reassured her. Or else that entire group of three would think Colleen would think, "Oh man, I guess everyone's going their own way..." So Colleen would be reeled in just as equally as John, Tina and Vecepia. Meaning, she thinks she has her ducks in a line just as much as the other three. From her vantage point, she probably had John and her battling it out with Tina and Vee- and with the possible edge in her mind of Tina liking her more than John, and Vee and John maybe wanting to get back at Tina for screwing them over with Rob. In her mind, she would have just as many options as the other three AHIS. So, when Gretchen makes the deal, it's a deal Colleen doesn't need because it might get her to the end easier, she would also fear losing (and handing the game over to Alicia) because she screwed over John, Vee and Tina unnessessarily. The talk from Gretchen in reality, would most likely just be a distraction trying to give the audience false hope. And Colleen's ideal plan would probably be for Alicia to leave before Gretchen just in terms of "Oh yay, Gretchen gets to stay longer, she deserves it." But once Alicia wins immunity, Colleen would have the pangs and pull of should I save Gretchen. And Vee, Tina and John all spin doctor her all sweetening their final endgame deals. it would be O's Razar, with the most obvious solution- four to two of Gretchen leaving. Alicia wins immunity next (she won reward also, so wouldn't have been taken out) -and here John has the reigns of the game. Even if Alicia didn't win, and Tina didn't also -I think John counters with making his move to remove Tina- guiding Colleen that it's their best move. Alicia is fine taking out Tina (payback and emotional about her not winning again, that she didn't beat Alicia twice). If Alicia won immunity, Vee and Tina would have to come up with a plan (Tina would want Colleen to stay, Vee would want John to stay)- but John has the edge by pointing out to Alicia we can't risk those two previous winners being a block in final four- and we can physically beat Colleen and Vee in comps. (Alicia saw firsthand how strong Tina is in the Outback endurance and she will be on her radar all the time -and you can't trust Wesson no matter what after the Keko deal fell through) Final four, Colleen wins the foot race immunity. (Her name would have been substituted for Gretchen's in Sensei's hat pull) and here it gets tricky. Did John and Colleen previously come up with the plan in final five to remove Tina by using Alicia and then intend to keep Vee for final three as someone easier to beat? Or is that too mean for Colleen and in final five once that threesome is established (John, Alicia, herself) this is fun. |
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SenseiKreese |
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Part of the problem with the final 6 episode (at least from some of the readers' perspective) is that I did something in it that I have never done before,
in any episode ever. And I knew it would be a little bit jarring, because it doesn't fit the pattern of the rest of my episodes. If you're used to a
certain type of "Mario episode", it doesn't fit the archetype. It is a little bit different from the other ones, and I did that intentionally.
What is the difference? Well one of my flaws as a writer is that I tend to be way too obvious in my episodes. If you pay attention, you will notice that they always tend to follow a very deliberate pattern. I tend to lay out what the entire storyline of an episode will be in the first five pages. If you read the first section or two of any episode, you will see that I give away what is going to happen. And then the rest of the episode is just misdirection or character building as I try to hide the obvious and make it suspenseful again. Why do I always give away the storyline at the start of the episode? Easy. Because I write these episodes over weeks or sometimes months at a time. I never write them all in one big chunk. So if I don't give myself an "outline" at the start, sometimes I forget what I was planning to do. So there you go, there is one of the secrets of my episodes. The start always tells you what is going to happen. But the final 6 episode of Hawaii is the one episode all story where that doesn't happen. It is the one episode where what happens at the start of the episode (Gretchen's plan with Colleen) doesn't pay off. And I'm guessing that is what a little bit jarring to some people. If you're used to my style of writing, it totally sounds like I cheated because I laid out a very deliberate A->B->C storyline, and then I veered off and changed it midway through. And I hardly EVER do that. It's totally unlike every other one of my episodes. Why is this episode different? Well because I was experimenting. I was getting tired of how predictable my episodes were (to me, they seem totally predictable), and I wanted to do one that just threw everyone a big curveball. I wanted to set up a storyline that would be tremendously pleasing to the audience at home, and then I just wanted to yank it right out from under everyone and end in a horrible tragedy. It was my attempt to really mess with everyone who was used to my writing. I wanted to do something I had never done before. Usually when you lose a popular character (Gina in Alaska, Greg in Alaska, etc) I tend to give them a tribute on the way out. But with Colleen (who would very well be the most popular character in Hawaii, had this ever aired on TV) I wanted to do just the opposite. I wanted her exit to be more of a gut punch. I didn't want to give her a tribute, I wanted her exit to come off as "unfair." Again, CL will call this me "fan fictionizing" the story, but for me it was just an attempt as a writer to do something I had never done before. I wanted to lay out the storyline for you, clear as crystal, and then yank it right out from under you. And if people find that episode jarring, that's why. It doesn't fit the pattern of the rest of my stories. But that wasn't because I screwed up, that was because I intended it to go down that way. For me, it was just a different type of writing experiment. |
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colleenlover |
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Oh no, no, no. I sincerely mean it when I say something is expertly written. And I loved the style. I thought it was very successful.
Again, like a broken record, my problem was the rules of the game had shifted -I mean the rules of the game of storytelling that I felt had been firmly established. And I had to ask myself am I being fair? Am I just going to go through it with a fine tooth comb when Colleen is in danger as opposed to Lex, or X,Y or Z. Would I be reluctant to call you out when a move benefits Colleen when it skirts what I feel are the parameters of the "rules?" One never is trully sure, but I think I would have. Colleen's leaving was essentially the same as Mike falling into a fire in Outback. Yes, it could happen in real life, but the chances of it happening are 1 in a thousand- and unless you have a card in a shuffle deck that you pull where it says this outside element has to happen, I feel you can't really use it in the story. Prior to this episode, basically it was pointed out that Colleen had the most protection around her, unless she screwed up royally. So while it was dramatic and effective, I felt every thing had to line up in a certain way to get that desired result, when most likely it wouldn't have happened. (and certainly if it remained this way, Tina and Vecepia would still remove Gretchen, and coccoon Colleen for later) And the project was set-up to roll play "hey, what do we think would happen if there were ever an All-stars series?" So I feel like a character is just torpedoed out of the equation -like a bit of a cheat. So when Vecepia wins, not that I don't think she wouldn't, I'm like, "well, the equation was messed with a little..." So I'm not sure about this final answer. Does that make sense? I'm not trying to pick a fight, just debating it. And really feel there's merit to it. I know it was a lot of work, and hey other things should take priority, and as readers should just appreciate whatever we get. But I can't imagine you would just write something like this and just want to hear, "Awesome." "Wow, great." etc, etc. I think in a serial, you had to go back and reread the past episodes and revisit what you had established and how you're characters are growing -since they essentially become your own creations. With the stop and start process, you risk falling back on your preconceived ideas of the characters from the television show and not their new pursuits/ideas/feelings that you've crafted. So, when I criticized for not knowing what I'm talking about, and then you reveal, "well, the truth is I never go back and reread the earlier episodes," I'm left with my mouth agape about how I can be dismissed as delusional. (I clearly am delusional in real life, but that's a whole other can of worms). Again, though -you're a great writer and this was a whole ton of fun. |
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SenseiKreese |
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I didn't say you were delusional. I just said that your criticisms are misplaced. From your point of view, you are entirely correct. The problem is that
you and I aren't looking at this story from the same viewpoint. I had entirely different goals this time than I had in 2002. This wasn't just a
"what would happen next?" simulation experiment. This time, I wanted to make sure it was good. That's a big difference.
And I never went back and re-read my Greece or Alaska episodes either. That's not a new revelation at all. I rarely if ever go back and read my old stuff. |
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colleenlover |
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the delusional part is probably more on my part -look, I'm spending time arguing about a fictional gameshow. That's pretty messed up.
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DMC362 |
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good ending.
Nice to see the winners had a chance in this story unlike the real All Stars. With the way it played out it seemed they should't have bother to even come. Glad to see you might write something in the future. |
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SenseiKreese |
Finale is posted! | ||
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The finale is posted. Final draft! I didn't change too much, but I altered a couple of the jury questions quite a bit. Hope you liked it.
And yes the notes and interviews will be up soon. I know you are dying for them. :-P Thanks for reading! I like the new Hawaii 10000x more than the old Hawaii. I'm finally proud of this story. Hope you guys have been too. http://members.aol.com/AllStarHawaii/hawaii.htm -Mario |
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SenseiKreese |
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Oh yeah and that aol page will be gone on October 31st. AOL is discontinuing all webpages. In related news, AOL are dicks.
I'll have a new Hawaii main page up sometime in the next two weeks. All the episode links will stay the same though. Same for the other stories (new main page, same episode links). Changing the URLs on all of these is going to be an enormous pain in the ass. Thanks, AOL. -Mario |
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TheLurkerSpeaks |
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Looking forward to the finale commentary when you can get it up.
Thanks for the entertainment you've provided with this project. |
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rolandofthewhite |
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I loved the finale, Mario! I was waiting for you to put the "official" version up on the website, so I was dying of anticipation, slightly. I really had no idea who was going to win in the end, but I agree, it completely made sense. And if you're looking for a new server (since AOL has gone kaput), you should try 110mb. They're free and give you plenty of space with which to work. *shrug* |
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SenseiKreese |
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Really? I have never heard of that site. I will have to look into it. Thanks!
And the interviews should be fun to write. I have 2 of them done already. I'll post them all once they are ready to go. |
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