S23 Episode 12 - Story Arcs in MESS Hall Tribal Council Forum

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S23 Episode 12 - Story Arcs

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ratsnsnakes		#81	[-]
Posts: 1529 12/06/11 10:56 AM MESS member More Recent Posts	birdlady wrote: I've decided that there's not any way to project the winner from the editing this season. The editors should win. Nothing really happened at all the season - Ozzy is still exactly Ozzy, Wade is still exactly douche/tool/sociopath, and the closest thing ANY of the players has to strategy was Cochran's 20 seconds of geophobic dither. The editors made the whole thing up, not a story arc but just enough tantalizing every week to make us keep plopping down on the couch to watch through the final episode. Which will suck, but it doesn't matter because we will have already watched it and then it will be christmas and then we will forget everything and start the new season with fresh dreams of super pole, pink bikini, rats, and snakes. Thanks for referencing my favorite things about Survivor! I'm with you, BL, I'm giving up on figuring out anything from the editing this year. Personally rooting for (though wishing for might be closer to the right word) either a Sophie win or an Ozzy win, but really again only because I just do not want Benjamin to win anything ever again. I've never found him the least bit entertaining because I don't like self-deluded, self-aggrandizing, bullying (you read that right), misogynistic, fools. And as I've said earlier in one of these threads, I'd so love to be able to walk away from Survivor but I just can't and it's mostly because I love interacting you you folks so much. Bah, humbug on SSP! But Hooray for MESSers!
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rower		#82	[-]
Posts: 4370 12/06/11 11:47 AM Registered User More Recent Posts	BL and rats. Right on.... both of you. I really, really don't want to see Coach win. He is everything and more than just what rats pointed out. That being said are we really surprised that we can't get a read on who wins from the edit? Sucks has been really proud over the years of the ability of posters to get into the edit and "predict" the winners. Since the missaye debacle I think CBS took notice and has decided to shake it up a bit. We know they are aware of this site and what better way to screw with us then totally go against previous formulas for editing and create some suspense. Long story short, I don't believe everything I see or read but try to keep an open mind. And I certainly don't see this season finishing up as predictable as everyone else seems to think. I'm actually thinking we might see a Coach/RICK/Ozzy final three. We'll see.
Polonium		#83	[-]
Posts: 12588 12/06/11 12:21 PM More Recent Posts	CBS isn't going to edit their show just to mess with a couple thousand internet users at the expense of 11 million casual fantards who depend on the editing of the show in order to form an opinion about anything.
Coachocd		#84	[-]
Posts: 8803 12/06/11 01:11 PM MESS member More Recent Posts	birdlady wrote: I've decided that there's not any way to project the winner from the editing this season. The editors should win. Nothing really happened at all the season - Ozzy is still exactly Ozzy, Wade is still exactly douche/tool/sociopath, and the closest thing ANY of the players has to strategy was Cochran's 20 seconds of geophobic dither. The editors made the whole thing up, not a story arc but just enough tantalizing every week to make us keep plopping down on the couch to watch through the final episode. Which will suck, but it doesn't matter because we will have already watched it and then it will be christmas and then we will forget everything and start the new season with fresh dreams of super pole, pink bikini, rats, and snakes. I totally agree. My fan favorite award goes to the editors. They really made something out of absolutely nothing.
Onesearch	w	#85	[-]
Posts: 357 12/06/11 02:08 PM More Recent Posts	` Buddha wrote: @OneSearch -- you've misunderstood a lot of what I wrote -- I meant that I assumed you're too young to know about Charles Manson if you can think "casual viewers" don't get the reference to Helter Skelter (which is what you said) not that you were a "casual viewer." The main problem with your first post to me was that the whole thing was an exercise in talking down. My response was to try to deal with your general tone which was chock full of the presumption that since I was disagreeing with you, then there must me some other reason than that I had an opinion based on an educated and well perceived view of what Cochran had said. That I must be very young, unaware of the connection between the Beatles song and Manson and generally unaware of what I was talking about in general. Need I go back and highlight all of the "you seem to be unaware"s in your post or remind you that you told me that Google was my friend? None of your assumptions were correct and while it's almost certain that the vast majority of viewers (90+%?) will have heard of the Manson family, I stand by my opinion (based on a lifelong of being a Beatles' fan and a general sense of what others probably know about them) that only a small percentage will have caught the oblique reference to Helter Skelter. Granted, that song has a life beyond just the Beatles considering the connection, but I doubt that that added element would push the percentage of people who caught the oblique reference above 20% - and of those who caught it, most of them probably heard the Cochran tone context and didn't give it the importance that you did. And I never wrote anything about the number of confessionals -- you wrote the Manson name was only mentioned once -- I wrote there was 3 distinct references to Manson: Manson, Sharon Tate & Helter Skelter. Well, this is basically disingenuous on your part, imo. While you never used the word confessional, you did bold the word "distinct" and continually make the point about there being three references. The essence of my post to this was that the "helter Skelter" reference was oblique and minor (that can't be settled, but my opinion on this is much more solid than you thought) and the other two references were part of the same conversation and really only count once. Whether you actually used the word "confessionals" is a technicality. Accordingly, the bulk of your entire post is pretty much non-response to mine & I feel no need to address it other than to refer you to my previous post and my summary here: Manson = insanity = extremely horrible association for Coach & Upolu that should not be minimized. Ah, first to talk down and if that doesn't work just act dismissive in general. 1) Your original post on this matter had a concentrated focus on Coach connecting him to Manson. Just wasn't so. 2)You're not fully allowing for Cochran's tone and probably for the way the viewers took his tone in general. As such, you're probably way overfocused on this. 3) I actually did find your earlier post that you made on this subject interesting with regard to Sophie and Ozzy and did vaguely compliment you on that in my initial post. 4) You need to learn to accept criticism more constructively instead of making dismissive assumptions.
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rower		#86	[-]
Posts: 4370 12/06/11 03:50 PM Registered User More Recent Posts	Coachocd wrote: birdlady wrote: I've decided that there's not any way to project the winner from the editing this season. The editors should win. Nothing really happened at all the season - Ozzy is still exactly Ozzy, Wade is still exactly douche/tool/sociopath, and the closest thing ANY of the players has to strategy was Cochran's 20 seconds of geophobic dither. The editors made the whole thing up, not a story arc but just enough tantalizing every week to make us keep plopping down on the couch to watch through the final episode. Which will suck, but it doesn't matter because we will have already watched it and then it will be christmas and then we will forget everything and start the new season with fresh dreams of super pole, pink bikini, rats, and snakes. I totally agree. My fan favorite award goes to the editors. They really made something out of absolutely nothing. I agree as well. Talk about making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. That being said, you currently have two competing story lines. Coach and his "Family" and Ozzy on RI. Who will prevail? Both are showing equally strong (you understand I mean relatively speaking for this season) story arcs and neither have been resolved. With the way this season has played out, it seems to be the only stories which relate to the end. And that is why it is so difficult to project a winner from the editing at this point. The final resolution of the two story lines won't come until the stories become merged when we learn who the RI returnee is. And contrary to what others think, I believe that CBS is going to edit everything in such a way as to keep everyone (posters and the public) guessing while providing a story line that will be tied into the eventual outcome.
Buddha DeCat		#87	[-]
Posts: 700 12/06/11 04:06 PM More Recent Posts	@OneSearch -- I wasn't being dismissive nor was I being disingenuous. Your interpretations of my intent are wrong. Your attempt to extrapolate the words "distinct references" (with added reading into the use of bold font) to mean "confessionals" -- I'm at a loss to answer as right now I'm feeling like Brer Rabbit with the tarbaby. I can't make my thoughts of the Coach/Upolu story arc from last episode any clearer than I already did in my previous post -- if referencing you to that is taken as an insult or dismissive, I can't help you. But I'm happy to agree to disagree with you on this (which I also thought I pretty much made clear). We have less than a week and a half to see if I'm justified in my reading of the story arcs I see for this season. If Coach wins, I'm 100% wrong; If any Upolu wins I was wrong to extend the associations to the rest of the Upolu as they were only intended only for Coach (and Brandon, as he was specifically singled out by John). If a Savai'i wins, I'm right. I'm not asking you to agree or disagree with this last part ^^^ (bolded, with no nefarious intent; only to distinguish it as "the last part"). That is how I am going to judge my viewing of the story arcs for myself.
Outfrontgirl		#88	[-]
Posts: 1371 12/06/11 07:20 PM MESS member More Recent Posts	Buddha DeCat wrote: @OFG -- if you actually think my point was that the Upolu were going to murder John (or anyone) I don't know what to tell you. Of course we are talking metaphorically here -- at least I presumed so, obviously I shouldn't have. In the game, Coach has referred to a person's "Survivor life"(one specific example, that Edna would "lay down her Survivor life" for him) and there have been references by both Coach & Sophie that if you go against the Family "you're dead" or "I may need to put a bullet in his brain" etc. -- I actually do realize that is metaphorical talk and they weren't going to actually kill anyone. However if you are downing playing the fact -- and it is a fact -- that Charles Manson is an international symbol for insanity and Coach & Upolu being associated with that goes way beyond just calling the Upolu a "cult"-- then all I can tell you is I do not accept your premise. That's fine -- we don't have to agree on it. As to the Jim Jones references -- going on for a while now with Coach & Upolu, first by Jim & then mixed up by John with Manson, true, but John's mistake is really of no moment -- they are another association of the Upolu & Coach with international symbols of insanity (again, I'm aware, this is not saying the Upolu are going to actually commit mass murder. I feel the need to clarify that). To mix in yet another association with insanity, Coach's entire edit has taken a very Col. Kurtz "Heart of Darkness"/"Apocalypse Now" vibe to it for a while now which was made explicit in my mind last episode. We are meant to associate Coach with insanity (again, not actual murder, but, again, much more sinister than merely calling Upolu a "cult"). Until this last episode I was prepared to say that it was only associated with Coach and not all Upolu -- after the last episode, I have extended it to include all of them. The Sophie machete chopping scene cut into references of Manson & Jim Jones wasn't a joke, or tongue in cheek -- it was meant to reinforce exactly the images to which John was referring. I find absolutely no argument persuasive that we were meant to see it any other way. So we can agree to disagree on that one too. eta: and btw, John was not the first one to make the association between Coach/Upolu with Manson & Jim Jones, so the argument that he is a joking or not a good source doesn't hold much weight in this matter for me either. The reference to Upolu as "The Family" has been going on for a while now, by the Upolu themselves, and Jim was the first one to associate them with Jim Jones with the Kool Aid reference. The reason I point to John in this last episode as a turning point is because what he did was specifically name Manson, Helter Skelter & Sharon Tate & added the adjective "poisoned" to Kool Aid, which made the references explicit in case their previous subtlety had been lost. BtC, I enjoy your posts and don't want to get in an argument, don't like getting contentious at MESS in any case. Of course it is understood that the references are metaphorical. I realize you don't know anything about me, but my background is college level literature instructor, and metaphor is a big part of what I taught. So I ruffle a little when I get lectured on it. My point, and this is where we clearly disagree, is that a metaphor can attach to a character in a serious fashion or it can appear hyperbolic and disjunctive for the situation. I am not talking about anyone thinking that Coach is literally a Manson type leader inciting real murders. I am saying that the reality of these characters is so far from the Manson metaphor that the metaphor doesn't seem apt. Therefore it bounces back on the desperate attention ho making the fuss -- Cochran. The "Satan" metaphor worked with Russell in his first season, because he played bad ... he didn't mind being evil. Coach and Sophie are not playing evil. John can use all the hyperbole he wants about how he can't break in because of the Manson-like cult, but the fact is, he's not a good player, brings nothing to the table, and he wasn't part of the group from Day One, end of story Cochran, no brainwashing or koolaid needed. As for Jim talking about the koolaid -- at this point, you well know that drinking the koolaid has become shorthand in our culture for someone buying into someone's BS without questioning. As for the Family, thanks to Robfaddah, we have this Survivor history of referencing the Mafia. But thanks to the Godfather films and the Sopranos, a Mafia family head can be the protagonist. So Coach is play-acting Tony Soprano. That doesn't mean Coach can't win. If Coach were really taking his play to the level of brainwashing his alliance and getting them to mistreat others, then I would take the Manson refs from Cochran as a more serious editorial critique of Coach, but instead I see Cochran being over the top trying to pitch himself as the victim by placing himself metaphorically into an iconic tale of cruelty and evil conspiracy -- when he's not. As a viewer, my only reaction was to think Cochran is so full of himself, and the cut to Sophie chopping was funny. Boston Rob's handling of the post-merge pagonging was far meaner, and that was shown, and his followers were called cultists, but Rob had won the game! That should show that the editors have no problem showing the dark side of the winner, or even editing it a bit darker than the reality to make better TV drama.
Onesearch		#89	[-]
Posts: 357 12/07/11 02:02 PM More Recent Posts	Buddha DeCat wrote: @OneSearch -- I wasn't being dismissive nor was I being disingenuous. Your interpretations of my intent are wrong. Your attempt to extrapolate the words "distinct references" (with added reading into the use of bold font) to mean "confessionals" -- I'm at a loss to answer as right now I'm feeling like Brer Rabbit with the tarbaby. I can't make my thoughts of the Coach/Upolu story arc from last episode any clearer than I already did in my previous post -- if referencing you to that is taken as an insult or dismissive, I can't help you. But I'm happy to agree to disagree with you on this (which I also thought I pretty much made clear). We have less than a week and a half to see if I'm justified in my reading of the story arcs I see for this season. If Coach wins, I'm 100% wrong; If any Upolu wins I was wrong to extend the associations to the rest of the Upolu as they were only intended only for Coach (and Brandon, as he was specifically singled out by John). If a Savai'i wins, I'm right. I'm not asking you to agree or disagree with this last part ^^^ (bolded, with no nefarious intent; only to distinguish it as "the last part"). That is how I am going to judge my viewing of the story arcs for myself. All good, in general. I can go with "agree to disagree". I like your whole "brer rabbit and the tar baby" analogy and I'll try not to add too much to the tar here. I think you could probably benefit by going back and reading the development of the discussion, but it's time for me to leave that to your own disgression. Either way, I'll continue to enjoy your posts ( though you're right that I don't agree with the validity of the bolded test of your theory above. )
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S23 Episode 12 - Story Arcs